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Old 12-10-2012, 04:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The 250R is more forgiving of errors that you are going to make. You'll be a beginner; everybody makes stupid mistakes while they're learning and developing skill.

The 250R probably won't bite you if you screw up, but the bigger bikes are much more likely to. What's a non-event on a 250R (say, dumping the clutch), is likely to be a pucker moment on a bigger bike.

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Old 12-10-2012, 05:45 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by williamr View Post
650s are sort of OK for some newbies who don't mind learning how to ride slow.

Rob
I don't believe it Rob, you actually caved here... this is the first time you have ever said anything other than start on 250.

Ok, OP to be honest, you are going to have a hard time learning on a 650 because of your height. You need to do MSF course before you do anything else. If you think you still want to ride, pick up a used 250 or 300 (if available by that time).

The 650 is over 410lbs wet, and the second you drop the clutch or grab a fistful of front brake, you will not be able to stop the thing from falling. When I was starting on 650 it tipped on me once when I stalled going down a driveway. I caught it a few other times solely because of the leverage using my legs (5'11").

I'm not putting you down because of your height, I'm just saying it is going to feel too big for you. You might be scared of it because of it's weight.

That one time was the only time the frame sliders had to do their job, and I was able to basically gently set the bike on it's side to regrip and pull it upright. I caught the bike midair but didn't have enough in me to pull it up at that point.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Thanks for the responses guys. Yeah, I feel like if the bike tips, I probably wont be able to catch it, but even if I have a 250, it will probably go down...Im short and only weigh about 130-135 lbs.

I do kind of want a 250...but it just sucks knowing that I will out grow it and bigger bikes are similar in price. The thing is, I will be doing a lot of high way (once I get used to riding) riding and I dont like the fact that I will be pushing the 250 everytime I ride. I would want something a bit quieter once I reach 60ish. I think if I take it REALLY slow, it shouldnt be a problem but who knows
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Thanks for the responses guys. Yeah, I feel like if the bike tips, I probably wont be able to catch it, but even if I have a 250, it will probably go down...Im short and only weigh about 130-135 lbs.

I do kind of want a 250...but it just sucks knowing that I will out grow it and bigger bikes are similar in price. The thing is, I will be doing a lot of high way (once I get used to riding) riding and I dont like the fact that I will be pushing the 250 everytime I ride. I would want something a bit quieter once I reach 60ish. I think if I take it REALLY slow, it shouldnt be a problem but who knows
1) No, you won't go down on a 250R. The bike's not that heavy. If at least one foot can touch the ground, the bike's not going anywhere.

2) Bigger bikes are not similar in price. One, you have the initial purchase cost of the bigger and more expensive bike. Two, insurance is more expensive. Three, maintenance is more expensive. Four, they use more gas (with some using premium, where the 250R only requires regular). Five, parts are more expensive.

3) You won't be pushing it on the highway. It only starts to loose steam around 90-95 MPH. Even then, they can go about 105-110 MPH indicated. Still fast enough to get you arrested.

4) The big bikes are generally louder. My ZX6R (with stock exhaust) is much louder than my 250R (with stock exhaust) ever was, even while going wide-open-throttle. Either way, it's not the engine noise that really gets you; it's the wind noise. Helmets are loud. I, and a lot of others, wear earplugs. They reduce fatigue and you actually hear better.

-Will
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Well, bigger bikes the same year arent the same price, but for example, a newish 250 vs an early 2000 gsxr can be had for similar prices at least in my area. I am just talking about initial costs though. However, arent 650's pretty similar to insure compared to 250s? (well, my buddy ran got a few quotes and it seemed pretty similar)
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Old 12-10-2012, 08:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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So would you say guys like this are the rule or the exception? Maybe if he started on a 250 he'd be AMA champ.
I'm saying that you can't say a silly blanket statement like "You will never be fast because you started on the wrong bike". Sure, smaller bikes are easier and safer to learn on, and I always steer newer riders towards smaller bikes designed for noobs. My first bike was an EX500 and I am glad I didn't start on anything bigger.


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Old 12-11-2012, 05:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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The guy that holds the lap record for 600 ss, 600 sbk, and 750 ss (on a 600) at PIR started on an SV 650. Not bad for someone that never logged the required time on a scooter, 125, and 250.


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At moto GP level it's usually different and nearly all the top riders start small, but in any case you're wearing your track head again. Street is different. If you ever took your helmet off that little fact might one day get pounded through your skull. Track is a lot less scary and doesn't inhibit you as much as the street. And the part of the learning curve that has you sliding along the track before you get up and get back on your bike often has you sliding into something hard and bone breaking on the street.

I can say you will probably never be fast on the street because on too fast a bike you won't learn how to read and anticipate traffic flow so that you're always in the right place at the right time and in the right gear. Search long enough and you'll find an exception. Jesus was an exception to the fact that we all die eventually and resurrection isn't an option. Most of us aren't Jesus.

And maybe if you'd started on a small bike you wouldn't be trying to convince a bunch of enthusiastic amateurs on an internet forum but be a pro racer instead.

AV8r - a 250 can go down in a stall or something similar. It's a lot less likely to than a bigger bike, but if you're a touch slow getting a foot down you'll go over. New riders especially are often a touch slow. No real harm done usually, but it's easy to lose a strip of skin from wrists or ankles so don't use the fact that you're on a 250 as an excuse not to wear boots and gloves.

ShinobeJeh - yeah, I bent a little. I don't have a problem with the size and weight of any bike for a newby. A day on a borrowed small bike to get the basics and build up some confidence, then a couple of days of decent instruction can get you doing full lock figure eights and the like on any bike. It's real easy on some of the big Harleys. The issue is the power on the street, so my very hesitant view that in some circumstances the 650 can be sort of OK is for the guy who's going to ride cruiser style with no interest in ever being a little bit quick. Trouble is, that sort of rider shouldn't really be on the 650 anyway as it's wasting the bike's potential, and one day he might decide to use some of that potential without really having acquired the skills to..

Swagen - At 60 on the highway the 250 is cruising very gently and very quietly. It'll cruise at around 80 comfortably enough with a good reserve of power for getting out of trouble if you're daft enough to get into trouble. You won't outgrow a 250. You will go through a period of being bored with it because you build confidence much faster than you build skill, but you pass through that and start to realise just how good and how much fun the 250 really is as your skills catch up. That's the point when you're ready for a faster bike - the time when you're wondering if you really need one rather than knowing that you want one.

Rob

Last edited by williamr; 12-11-2012 at 06:18 AM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Swagen - At 60 on the highway the 250 is cruising very gently and very quietly. It'll cruise at around 80 comfortably enough with a good reserve of power for getting out of trouble if you're daft enough to get into trouble. You won't outgrow a 250. You will go through a period of being bored with it because you build confidence much faster than you build skill, but you pass through that and start to realise just how good and how much fun the 250 really is as your skills catch up. That's the point when you're ready for a faster bike - the time when you're wondering if you really need one rather than knowing that you want one.

Rob
This is soo true , the biggest problem with getting a faster bike is that eventually you will want to open it up and this usually happens before you have the skills or common sense to do it at the right place at the right time.

When I first got my 650 upgrading from a 250 I was wondering if I should had gotten something faster, but now after owning the bike for 8 months or so and riding it daily for 80 miles I realize that the bike is fine , hell the 250 was fine too if it wasn't because I have a really long commute on the highway , but even then the bike behaved like a champ and really loved my 250.

The more you ride the more cautious you become, surviving many close calls make your realize how ridiculously easy it is to bust your ass and ruin your life if you have any left after, these kind of things don't occur to you at the beginning as you are exploring the limits of the bike, once you get a few shit staining moments you are going to be riding that bike like an angel unless the right opportunity presents itself to you.

The only time you are going to see me go fast on my bike is on a straight highway with tons of visibility and very few if any cars on the road, I ride at the speed limit on the street and never take my eyes off the road.

The reason why I said this is because it took me over 10k miles to wisen up on a bike a 250 is a good self control tool.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I don't believe it Rob, you actually caved here... this is the first time you have ever said anything other than start on 250.

Ok, OP to be honest, you are going to have a hard time learning on a 650 because of your height. You need to do MSF course before you do anything else. If you think you still want to ride, pick up a used 250 or 300 (if available by that time).

The 650 is over 410lbs wet, and the second you drop the clutch or grab a fistful of front brake, you will not be able to stop the thing from falling. When I was starting on 650 it tipped on me once when I stalled going down a driveway. I caught it a few other times solely because of the leverage using my legs (5'11").

I'm not putting you down because of your height, I'm just saying it is going to feel too big for you. You might be scared of it because of it's weight.

That one time was the only time the frame sliders had to do their job, and I was able to basically gently set the bike on it's side to regrip and pull it upright. I caught the bike midair but didn't have enough in me to pull it up at that point.
That's gotta be the smartest thing in any of the posts...everything else is just...well...opinion... But of course that's also just my opinion...
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:07 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Rob, your the one that brought up being fast. Now it's about being fast through traffic.

I think it's funny how some of you people think that those of us that do ride on the track don't realize that most all of us learned to ride on the street first. Please, tell me more about the dangers and challenges of riding a motorcycle on the street.


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