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Old 11-07-2012, 06:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't think we should retest every few years , that is insanity , but there should be a "LOG" of hours riden , you have to ride a minimum amount of miles a year so you don't have to retest.

But whatever , we live in a country were we can legally fuck up at will and I am glad , is hard to kill people other than yourself in a bike anyhow.
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:35 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I agree with this. As well, I think we should have to retake and pass the drivers exam every few years. And if some fuck nut wants to pull out their phone anytime the instructor is around, they should fail the exam automatically. I get the shits of everyone texting and driving.

This semester I did a report on texting and driving for college, and texting while driving is more dangerous than driving with a BAC level way over the legal limit.
one fucks your jdugement/reaction time. other takes it away completely. idk whats worse. you can snap back into reality with the latter, cant really do that with drunk driving
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Old 11-07-2012, 06:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I don't think we should retest every few years , that is insanity , but there should be a "LOG" of hours riden , you have to ride a minimum amount of miles a year so you don't have to retest.

But whatever , we live in a country were we can legally fuck up at will and I am glad , is hard to kill people other than yourself in a bike anyhow.
I was talking about drivers licenses being retested. There are too many bad drivers on the road today. I've never been in a car accident while I was driving, but I've been pulled over for speeding a few times. I'm not a perfect driver by any means but I pay attention to what is happening around me. And riding has made me that way.

If I'm a passenger in a friends car I'll randomly ask if they saw something along the side of the road (like a deer or something interesting), 90% of the time they have no clue we even passed a deer.

What's stopping someone from falsifying these logs that say how many hours you've ridden?
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Old 11-07-2012, 07:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I've said for the last few years they need to put a GPS tracker in cars to supplement a test. Take a test, or whatever your state requires, then put a gps tracker in the car to log speed, mileage, sudden braking, acceleration, steering etc. It probably can't tell how many lights and stop signs your run or probably how many times you drift out of your lane but its something.

Doesn't Progressive have something like that anyway? Ive seen commercials for some safe driving thing they have. A gps tracker wouldn't really keep anyone from driving someone elses car but I don't think it's a bad start. People would forget about it soon enough. Turn it in every year for a new one when you have to redo your registration, then the DMV can evaluate it and decide whether or not you should be driving, gives you a year to figure it out or definitely know you shouldn't be driving. With raw data you can at least have finite standards, go above a certain speed x number of times, get your license suspended. Tons of flaws that need to be fixed with this approach but you have to start somewhere.

Back on topic kinda, in NC you used to be able to just take a written test for your permit and every 18 months retake it and never have to get your endorsement. That was a little crazy but they changed it. I would rather have a better driving test since there are so many more cars than motorcycles. People go through motorcycle phases but they almost always drive. You have to actually be able to ride a motorcycle to pass motorcycle tests, generally.
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:01 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Don't forget that in order to get that permit, you already have to have a full drivers license in wich you are at least supposed to know how to operate a motor vehicle on the road by then. So the only difference a MC permit really causes is what you are driving, not the fact that you are.

We have 16yo girls with cell phones killing people in there parents cars every damn day, someone messing themselves up on a bike because they are a retard really isnt a concern by comparison.
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:18 AM   #16 (permalink)
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It's on you, the purchaser, to buy what you like and be responsible with it. Or not, whatever. You can't regulate every damn thing people do. It is what it is and all you can do is do right by yourself and keep your head on a swivel.

Like Badger said also, we rely on these retards to crash and make their parts available to us.
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Old 11-08-2012, 06:39 AM   #17 (permalink)
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At some point everybody has to be a complete beginner. Age, imo, isn't too much of an issue, but skills and experience for different levels of bike are what matter.

Nobody should get a licence until they've proved that they're competent at that level. It isn't just themselves that they might kill. Proof of competence has to be by a proper test, and if the test is rigorous most riders will have to take training to be able to pass it.

The EU also demands a minimum level of experience on slower bikes before being being allowed to progress to faster ones. This seems sensible to me. The stats show that it works. There are short cuts for mature (over 19 and over 24) riders. The older EU system with short cuts to unlimited licences for all over 21s has failed despite the high training and testing requirements. The accident rate for this group is very high by EU standards.

Other countries don't have the power restrictions, but don't allow the older riders to short cut the experience requirement before getting a full licence. That's possibly an equally valid way of producing a safe rider, but in my experience as an instructor doesn't produce such a good rider (good and safe are not the same thing) as the EU method.

I think there's a general agreement amongst experienced riders that a system that allows a complete beginner to get on to a powerful bike because he can answer a few questions and start and stop the bike is inadequate, but the minority who don't agree do tend to be very vociferous - freedom is more important than safety and it's perfectly safe anyway for a newby to take a supersport on the street. Some of the more libertarian tendency don't seem to care if an innocent bystander is killed or crippled by an untrained incompetent biker as long as their precious 'freedom' isn't impinged on. I've seen a car cut in half lengthways by an idiot on a bike who couldn't steer it at high speed. He was killed, bu so were three of the four people in the car.

One other point. A lot of what I've said applies equally to the American car licence. Also, as bikes are so different to cars, they shouldn't require a car licence first. In many countries it's more common for people to start on a bike or scooter before progressing to a car. They tend to be better car drivers as a result.

There's been a lot of research that shows that re-testing would not cut accident rates. Regular medical checks might, but surprisingly the older drivers wouldn't be particularly at risk. From the eyesight point of view the drivers with the worst eyesight are the 30 - 50 group who's sight is deteriorating but who are not willing to accept that they need glasses. Diabetes, epilepsy and most other conditions that can affect driving abilty are not particularly age dependent, so 5 yearly checks for all drivers, and a medical before getting your first licence are worth thinking about. And while there are problems with stats, they're a lot better than anecdotes and personal opinions, which are worth shit as evidence.

Odd that a lot of the riders who're against tiered licensing or proper testing are in favour of limiting older drivers, who the stats show are safer. Can't have it both ways guys.

Back to the original question. For the States, is it too easy to get behind the handlebars of a bike? The answer is yes, but it's also too easy to get behind the wheel of a car.

Rob

Last edited by williamr; 11-08-2012 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 11-08-2012, 11:27 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Flexxx View Post
Not sure how this varies, but in the state of NC, it seems far to easy to legally drive a motorcycle.

At the age of 16, a person can take the road course given at the DMV to obtain a motorcycle license. But a person can take a 15 minute written exam and obtain a motorcycle permit. That's it. The ONLY restriction on the permit is that the driver may not ride a passenger and they must wear a helmet. They can ride anywhere, with anyone, with any bike, at any given time. At least make it mandatory to take the MSF course or SOMETHING before being able to drive on the roads freely. But no course is necessary, no nothing. That just seems like an accident waiting to happen.

After all, NC DOES have the eight highest motorcycle death rate in the nation for a reason...
I still agree, that it's too easy to get any type of driver's license in this country. Nobody should be operating anything full size before legal age anyway, IMHO. No parents should be able to cover up for their out-of-control-on-the-roads offspring...

WV has restrictions on motorcycle licenses for under 18 rider prospects. They need to have at least their General Drivers License, with the usual restrictions for teenage drivers, in order to be able to apply for an instruction permit.
BUT, those guys wouldn't be able to do so, if the parents wouldn't sign off on it. IMHO again, it wouldn't be a bad idea, to make the parents take a quick test on a booklet 'How not to be tricked into buying a SS for my underage child, because I don't have a clue about 600cc and different bike types...' That's the general problem, that keeps coming up in the vivid stories that I get to hear from my good friend and MSF instructor...

Venom, come on... Riding log? Do you know how much suffering that would cause for those who want to preserve one of those precious low-mileage bikes.... You're cruel...
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Old 11-08-2012, 12:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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but the minority who don't agree do tend to be very vociferous - freedom is more important than safety and it's perfectly safe anyway for a newby to take a supersport on the street. Some of the more libertarian tendency don't seem to care if an innocent bystander is killed or crippled by an untrained incompetent biker as long as their precious 'freedom' isn't impinged on.

Rob
I was criticized by some of the folks I rode with after I had an eventful time selling my EX5 to some 17yo. The kid wanted to do a 500 mile ride back home after buying the bike from me, but after noticing certain things, I stopped him and urged him to get the bike trailered home and take some proper training classes. Critics said that I should have washed my hands after exchange of cash and title. Those who cared to delve deeper said that I was exposing myself to litigation if something happened and the kid decided to press charges. I would not mind the whole liberty and freedom rah-rah if it wasn't for the vulnerability to litigation part. What's the point of having freedom and liberty if one can't accept the consequences of their actions?
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Old 11-08-2012, 01:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I was criticized by some of the folks I rode with after I had an eventful time selling my EX5 to some 17yo. The kid wanted to do a 500 mile ride back home after buying the bike from me, but after noticing certain things, I stopped him and urged him to get the bike trailered home and take some proper training classes. Critics said that I should have washed my hands after exchange of cash and title. Those who cared to delve deeper said that I was exposing myself to litigation if something happened and the kid decided to press charges. I would not mind the whole liberty and freedom rah-rah if it wasn't for the vulnerability to litigation part. What's the point of having freedom and liberty if one can't accept the consequences of their actions?
Actually, those who criticized you were in fact on to something. Some states and countries have restrictions and limitations when it comes to conducting business with minors. It does NOT have anything to do with limiting freedom, it's a safeguard for inexperienced minors, so they would not run into financial or other trouble.
E.g. you can sell groceries to a minor, but you might not be able to make any sale, if the money exchanged exeeds certain amounts. It is very common, that if a bank takes the risk of selling a loan to a young adult up to the age of 21 in some areas, and the loan goes bad, the bank has to suck up the consequences, due to the young clients obvious inexperience...
If I had a underage child, and he/she would buy any vehicle without my knowledge, the seller could expect to be in trouble, too, because at that age the legal responsability is still with the parents for drivers licenses, insurance and registration.
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