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Old 11-27-2012, 08:56 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sev View Post
There will always be a way to disable it :P
Sounds like I'll be putting a Brembo master and new lines on any bike I buy in the future. Then rip the ABS servos and computers out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
weebel weebel weebel know things before you form opinions on them

bigspin S1000RR wheelies - YouTube

BMW S1000RR wheelie machine - YouTube

Teach on the BMW S1000RR - YouTube

You can turn the shit off

And please explain a scenario in which you would like to lock up the front tire... when is that ever desirable

Like I said this anti-safety stuff is pure ego. "I WANT to crash if I get in over my head" Like you can't wreck a bike w/ABS + traction control






BMW S1000RR CRASH - YouTube

Onboard crash with Ducati 1198 SP (Sachsenring 04/2012) - YouTube

And like I said if having a bike that won't lock up the front under panic braking is too much for your ego to stand you can buy an old bike that doesn't have it

I understand wanting to seek thrills and push the limits but there's a difference between doing that and just taking on risk you don't have to. Locking up the front in a panic stop or high siding a bike is not "fun" or "good risk", its just stupid

My next bike will have ABS if I can afford it
No to all of this. ABS hurts lap times. Plain and simple. Don't want it, don't need it, never locked the front resulting in a crash before and have too much fun backing it in to even want it out back. It's useless for me. Not only does it reduce feel and performance on the limit, it adds weight and complexity. I don't care if they make it an option. I will be VERY pissed if it becomes mandatory or standard, even if it can be defeated.

As for stopping distance ABS vs Non ABS it depends on the system. The only tests I have seen bike for bike were of a CBR600RR C-ABS and a few of sport tourers. The CBR600RR C-ABS took something like 22ft more to stop than the non-ABS version. The sport tourer tests depended on vehicle load and speed, but more than half the time the non-ABS bikes came out on top.

ABS wouldn't have helped the guy on the 1198SP at Sahsenring. He was leaned over on the grass. ABS can only do so much. He was going down with or without ABS. A little bit more skill would have helped the guy on the S1000RR. He looked like Vadger...

Sliding the rear on the brakes and on the power is fun, by the way. I'll continue to have fun on the brakes and on the gas while you do whatever it is you do on your boring rider aid equipped bike.

P.S. ABS is also a detriment to a rider's skill building. All he'll ever know is mashing down on the lever in an emergency(not a panic) situation. Should the ABS system fail, and they occasionally do, he'll be left with normal brake operation. Unfortunately he won't know how to modulate the brakes in an emergency stop situation and is far more likely to end up in the back of the minivan that pulled out in front of him. You're not supposed and shouldn't be panicking, and calling it a 'panic stop' is a cop out.
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:12 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Fuck this shit. Should be the RIDER'S choice if they want ABS or not. The government puts their hands in enough places that they shouldn't as it is. Soon we will barely be able to do or buy anything fun.

Putting a giant protective bubble around motorcycles will most definitely save noob riders from falling or dropping their bikes, let's make that shit legal too?!?! seriously, fuck off.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:31 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RacinJason44 View Post
It does make a lot of sense on the street, though. I would be lying if I said I never crashed on the brakes as a newbie.


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there will be a lot more new riders with even less ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goingtoscotland View Post
P.S. ABS is also a detriment to a rider's skill building. All he'll ever know is mashing down on the lever in an emergency(not a panic) situation. Should the ABS system fail, and they occasionally do, he'll be left with normal brake operation. Unfortunately he won't know how to modulate the brakes in an emergency stop situation and is far more likely to end up in the back of the minivan that pulled out in front of him. You're not supposed and shouldn't be panicking, and calling it a 'panic stop' is a cop out.
yup. this.
and not only do they fail, they are fucking EXPENSIVE to repair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bboytaktix View Post
Fuck this shit. Should be the RIDER'S choice if they want ABS or not. The government puts their hands in enough places that they shouldn't as it is. Soon we will barely be able to do or buy anything fun.

Putting a giant protective bubble around motorcycles will most definitely save noob riders from falling or dropping their bikes, let's make that shit legal too?!?! seriously, fuck off.
also this.

abs, do not want. on anything.

if im in a situation where im locking the tires, its because i wasnt paying attention, and likely going to fast, regardless of what im driving.

there would never be a reason to get BETTER at riding/driving.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:47 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nevada View Post
there will be a lot more new riders with even less ability.

yup. this.
and not only do they fail, they are fucking EXPENSIVE to repair.

also this.

abs, do not want. on anything.

if im in a situation where im locking the tires, its because i wasnt paying attention, and likely going to fast, regardless of what im driving.

there would never be a reason to get BETTER at riding/driving.
Really

You dont think fanyone who rides S1000RRs and ZX10s with ABS + TC has any room to improve

Once you have ABS + TC apparently there's nothing left to learn on a motorcycle... imagine that
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:49 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
Really

You dont think fanyone who rides S1000RRs and ZX10s with ABS + TC has any room to improve

Once you have ABS + TC apparently there's nothing left to learn on a motorcycle... imagine that
are you really that dense?

think about it, if the bikes have that equipment, even MORE noobs will be buying them. and, they wont HAVE to learn how to ride.

rider skill overall will DECLINE. just like DRIVER skill has declined.
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:54 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
Really

You dont think fanyone who rides S1000RRs and ZX10s with ABS + TC has any room to improve

Once you have ABS + TC apparently there's nothing left to learn on a motorcycle... imagine that
Quote:
Originally Posted by nevada View Post
are you really that dense?

think about it, if the bikes have that equipment, even MORE noobs will be buying them. and, they wont HAVE to learn how to ride.

rider skill overall will DECLINE. just like DRIVER skill has declined.
Drivers don't know how to correct a skid; drivers don't know how to threshold brake. All that shit in a car makes people complacent. Instead of turning their head over their fucking shoulder, they need a backup cam and blind spot radar.

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Old 11-27-2012, 11:04 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by goingtoscotland View Post
No to all of this. ABS hurts lap times. Plain and simple. Don't want it, don't need it, never locked the front resulting in a crash before and have too much fun backing it in to even want it out back. It's useless for me. Not only does it reduce feel and performance on the limit, it adds weight and complexity. I don't care if they make it an option. I will be VERY pissed if it becomes mandatory or standard, even if it can be defeated.
Not everyone lives on the track

Quote:
Originally Posted by goingtoscotland View Post
As for stopping distance ABS vs Non ABS it depends on the system. The only tests I have seen bike for bike were of a CBR600RR C-ABS and a few of sport tourers. The CBR600RR C-ABS took something like 22ft more to stop than the non-ABS version. The sport tourer tests depended on vehicle load and speed, but more than half the time the non-ABS bikes came out on top.
You have your mind made up about ABS so I'm not surprised that you only remember the tests that confirm your bias

Here is a test done by good old MSF

http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedi...ngdistance.pdf

Their conclusion?

Quote:
In general, the test results demonstrated an improvement in braking performance with the use of ABS, whether braking on a dry or wet surface even compared with the best stops obtained without ABS.
Another link... not sure it gets any more clear than this picture

Anti-lock Braking System - ABS| Spokes - Motorcycle safety information



Consumer Reports

The most-valuable motorcycle feature: antilock brakes

Although there are some problems with their implications... bikes w/o ABS can be older + shittier + more likely to get in an accident period

Etc. etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goingtoscotland View Post
ABS wouldn't have helped the guy on the 1198SP at Sahsenring. He was leaned over on the grass. ABS can only do so much. He was going down with or without ABS. A little bit more skill would have helped the guy on the S1000RR. He looked like Vadger...
ABS kept this guy from going down on the grass



Quote:
Originally Posted by goingtoscotland View Post
Sliding the rear on the brakes and on the power is fun, by the way. I'll continue to have fun on the brakes and on the gas while you do whatever it is you do on your boring rider aid equipped bike.
If its really that important to you, you can turn the stuff off. All the systems, including ABS, are completely defeatable on the S1000RR. Most bikes you just pull a fuse. You live on the track... do you cry this much about bikes being sold to you with headlights and horns too? Whats the big deal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goingtoscotland View Post
P.S. ABS is also a detriment to a rider's skill building. All he'll ever know is mashing down on the lever in an emergency(not a panic) situation. Should the ABS system fail, and they occasionally do, he'll be left with normal brake operation. Unfortunately he won't know how to modulate the brakes in an emergency stop situation and is far more likely to end up in the back of the minivan that pulled out in front of him. You're not supposed and shouldn't be panicking, and calling it a 'panic stop' is a cop out.
If someone is getting into situations where they are threshold braking regularly on the street ABS won't save them. They are relying on luck. And even with ABS folks need to practice + get a feel for how the bike behaves at the limit. People still crash bikes + cars with all kinds of safety nets, you still need skills

But even the best riders get caught out. These safety devices are just extra insurance. Dont tell me you ride around w/minimal coverage too. It sounds like you would find the prospect of having to pay for injuries and damage out of pocket "thrilling"
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:05 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
Really

You dont think fanyone who rides S1000RRs and ZX10s with ABS + TC has any room to improve

Once you have ABS + TC apparently there's nothing left to learn on a motorcycle... imagine that
You just don't get it.
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are you really that dense?
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:19 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
Not everyone lives on the track


You have your mind made up about ABS so I'm not surprised that you only remember the tests that confirm your bias

Here is a test done by good old MSF

http://www.msf-usa.org/imsc/proceedi...ngdistance.pdf

Their conclusion?

Another link... not sure it gets any more clear than this picture

Anti-lock Braking System - ABS| Spokes - Motorcycle safety information



Consumer Reports

The most-valuable motorcycle feature: antilock brakes

Although there are some problems with their implications... bikes w/o ABS can be older + shittier + more likely to get in an accident period

Etc. etc.



ABS kept this guy from going down on the grass

Near Death Experience (slow motion) - YouTube



If its really that important to you, you can turn the stuff off. All the systems, including ABS, are completely defeatable on the S1000RR. Most bikes you just pull a fuse. You live on the track... do you cry this much about bikes being sold to you with headlights and horns too? Whats the big deal?


If someone is getting into situations where they are threshold braking regularly on the street ABS won't save them. They are relying on luck. And even with ABS folks need to practice + get a feel for how the bike behaves at the limit. People still crash bikes + cars with all kinds of safety nets, you still need skills

But even the best riders get caught out. These safety devices are just extra insurance. Dont tell me you ride around w/minimal coverage too. It sounds like you would find the prospect of having to pay for injuries and damage out of pocket "thrilling"
Test #1 was the sport touring test I referred to. If you actually look at the results of that test you'll see that ABS and non ABS split the difference on most bikes, and in one case, a lightly loaded FJR1300 the non-ABS bike stopped 40 feet faster than the ABS bike from 80mph

"Test" #2 isn't actually a test, it merely cites a survey done 9 years ago(before sportbikes ever had ABS) to give an "estimated" reduction in stopping distance.

I get it, you think ABS is an adequate replacement for skill.

I should not be forced to pay $1000 extra for ABS and TC because it's mandated. If I don't want it, I should be allowed to get a bike without it. As for headlights, are you that stupid? Considering my bike is both a street bike and a track bike, no I don't mind. If I wanted to buy a track or race only bike I could buy one without lights if I needed to, or I could just sell those parts and recoup some of the cost of making it a track/race bike. Cosmetic parts are infinitely easier to sell than something like an ABS computer or actuator/servo/pump. They're also infinitely easier to eliminate completely.

You're still missing my point. I don't care if it can be defeated. I don't want it on the bike in the first place. I'm sorry that I don't need such aids and mostly that you cannot wrap your head around that fact. I have never once in 150,000+ miles on the street and track needed ABS. Emergency stops on extremely cold tires and pavement, in the wet, in the dry. Not once. For that matter I haven't locked the front in the wet even with the rear wheel off the ground.

I apologize for asking if you were stupid, your last paragraph answered that question.

Edit: As I have said so many times already, I don't give a shit if they want to offer ABS and traction control as an option. Those who wish to purchase that option are welcome to. I do not want to be forced to purchase something I have no use for.
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Last edited by goingtoscotland; 11-27-2012 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:29 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Some people just will not be satisfied until everything potentially dangerous has been made illegal.

I learned to drive in non-abs equipped vehicles, and I still catch myself threshold braking in my ABS equipped truck. Do they even mention that shit in drivers Ed anymore.


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