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Old 11-28-2012, 11:00 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sportyaccordy View Post
Safety aids on cars have brought accident rates down which have brought insurance rates down

And if motorcycle riders competing at the highest level of the sport use + value TC systems and still crash, how is any of this talk of "electronic aids kill riding skills" relevant? Can anyone here pull a MotoGP lap time on a MotoGP bike just by rider's aids? The riders aids don't control the bike, you do
How is the talk about safety aids in cars relevant, motorcycles are a different type of a vehicle?

Motorcycles are two wheel vehicles and balance upright unlike a car. They have a small contact patch with the surface and are prone to falling over at low speeds. They require more skill than a car to operate

The portion I bolded is exactly what people against "safety features" all agree on. Why add more rider aids when the rider should be fully capable in handling his/her motorcycle in any condition? That's a responsibility for the rider, we shouldn't have to mandate rider aids.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:12 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Interesting factoid: Moto GP racers actually crashed more often on the electronic loaded 800's than they did the simpler 990's or even the 500 two strokes.

Now they just crash coming into corners instead of coming out of them as a rule.


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Old 11-29-2012, 04:16 AM   #33 (permalink)
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My thing is, cars & gas are getting expensive as shit, so motorcycles are beginning to make sense from a purely practical POV.
My car (140 bhp and 120 mph, so not particularly slow even by no stretch of imagination a sports orientated vehicle) does 55 mpg. My bike does 49 mpg.

Car costs 200 for a 12K service. Bike costs 450 - and needs a 200 intermediate service at 6K.

Car costs 500 per 30K miles for tyres, bike costs around 750 per 30K miles.

Road tax and insurance are about the same. Bike needs riding gear, car doesn't.

Car is warm/cool, dry, comfortable and has a decent stereo. Bike is fast through traffic.

Bike is middleweight Street Triple R - an ideal commuter. ER-6 was a bit cheaper to run. Bigger bikes are not. Car is a turbo diesel,

On the other hand a small bike can be very cheap to run and some cars, particularly in the States, need a fuel tanker to follow them.

All that apart, why don't we go back to tubed cross-ply tyres, drum brakes, manual ignition advance and acetylene lights. Some of you seem to want to pick and choose what safety aids suit you (high grip tyres and slipper clutches for example) but despise other safety aids. That is not a logical position to take.

The best safety aid is also the best performance aid. It's your brain, and I'd like to see some of you making more use of it. Some of you talk as though you have the skill set of a moto-GP professional. You don't, or that's what you'd be doing for a living. Accept that your skills are limited and you'll live longer. Learn how to use the safety aids and add them to your riding and you'll live longer still - and might even be faster in a wider range of adverse conditions.

Rob

Last edited by williamr; 11-29-2012 at 04:23 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:15 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by williamr View Post
My car (140 bhp and 120 mph, so not particularly slow even by no stretch of imagination a sports orientated vehicle) does 55 mpg. My bike does 49 mpg.

Car costs 200 for a 12K service. Bike costs 450 - and needs a 200 intermediate service at 6K.

Car costs 500 per 30K miles for tyres, bike costs around 750 per 30K miles.

Road tax and insurance are about the same. Bike needs riding gear, car doesn't.

Car is warm/cool, dry, comfortable and has a decent stereo. Bike is fast through traffic.

Bike is middleweight Street Triple R - an ideal commuter. ER-6 was a bit cheaper to run. Bigger bikes are not. Car is a turbo diesel,

On the other hand a small bike can be very cheap to run and some cars, particularly in the States, need a fuel tanker to follow them.

All that apart, why don't we go back to tubed cross-ply tyres, drum brakes, manual ignition advance and acetylene lights. Some of you seem to want to pick and choose what safety aids suit you (high grip tyres and slipper clutches for example) but despise other safety aids. That is not a logical position to take.

The best safety aid is also the best performance aid. It's your brain, and I'd like to see some of you making more use of it. Some of you talk as though you have the skill set of a moto-GP professional. You don't, or that's what you'd be doing for a living. Accept that your skills are limited and you'll live longer. Learn how to use the safety aids and add them to your riding and you'll live longer still - and might even be faster in a wider range of adverse conditions.

Rob
Sticky tires are not a safety aid. Disc over drum brakes are not a safety aid. Radial over tube ply are not safety aid. Digital ignition over manual ignition is not a safety aid. Your argument is invalid. To make it applicable...get rid of headlights, tires, brakes, an ignition system, clutches, etc...completely, not just retrograde.
ABS, TC, etc are not necessities and should not be mandated. If you feel it is a better option for you as a rider then YOU should be able to get it. I shouldn't HAVE to have it just because you think its better for you.
And for the record, I got kicked out of MotoGP because no one could keep up...


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Old 11-29-2012, 01:02 PM   #35 (permalink)
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ticky tires are not a safety aid. Disc over drum brakes are not a safety aid. Radial over tube ply are not safety aid. Digital ignition over manual ignition is not a safety aid. Your argument is invalid. To make it applicable...get rid of headlights, tires, brakes, an ignition system, clutches, etc...completely, not just retrograde.
I don't agree with that, I think he has a very valid point. There are some very good arguments for and against, but in this case I agree with Williamr

How can you not consider disc brakes a safety aid? They stop faster and don't lock up as much. The next step in evolution is ABS.

It's kind of like going from vinyl, to CD to MP3... There are still collectors of Vinyl records and there are still companies that make them but the majority of the world uses mp3s. I don't see how a bike is any different.

The world is evolving and people need to learn to evolve with it. We might not like change and as someone said before if you want drum brakes buy an older bike... or retro fit a new one. I am sure drum brakes will still be manufactured for years to come.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:29 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Royal Enfield is thriving thanks to people stuck in the past. No shame in it.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:38 PM   #37 (permalink)
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It's amazing how some people cannot, or simply are not willing to differentiate between something that is a mechanical device that only responds to your input versus a computer that does the thinking for you.


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Old 11-29-2012, 01:39 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Royal Enfield is thriving thanks to people stuck in the past. No shame in it.
Don't be a troll.


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Old 11-29-2012, 02:31 PM   #39 (permalink)
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making motorcycling safer in the US...ha. To do that, add two more wheels and a cage, to protect it from cars and poor road construction choices. ABS is a great technology jump, don't get me wrong. But the percentage of motorcycle fatalities that don't involve a car creating the danger in the first place, is very low. why did that guy lock up the front wheel on his bike and crash...well, because a car cut him off, pulled out in front of him, changed lanes into him...etc.

From the ground up, transporation in the US is all but ignores motorcyles and their saftey...road gaurding, painting, construction projects/planning and so on all all blissfully ignorant to the safety of motorcycles (and their operators). rubber aprons on RR crossings, tar and gravel road resurfacing to name a couple.

Then talk about the vacuum that exists behind the wheel....doing make-up, reading a book, texting/talking. The drivers ed program is a joke.

sorry...rant over...
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:51 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I don't agree with that, I think he has a very valid point. There are some very good arguments for and against, but in this case I agree with Williamr

How can you not consider disc brakes a safety aid? They stop faster and don't lock up as much. The next step in evolution is ABS.

It's kind of like going from vinyl, to CD to MP3... There are still collectors of Vinyl records and there are still companies that make them but the majority of the world uses mp3s. I don't see how a bike is any different.

The world is evolving and people need to learn to evolve with it. We might not like change and as someone said before if you want drum brakes buy an older bike... or retro fit a new one. I am sure drum brakes will still be manufactured for years to come.
I don't consider disc brakes a safety aid because they're not a safety aid. I see them as a performance upgrade. ABS is not a performance upgrade as it does not perform better in all circumstances and situations. Stickier tires are not 'safer' if you never get them too or keep them at ideal operating temperature.

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