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Old 11-29-2012, 03:09 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by WildCard View Post
In that case i would like to sell you a insurance policy. Its the "pre-op transvestite cuts your penis off with a rusty coffe can lid and then sodomizes you nearly to death with it and then leaves you for dead with dirty anus juice soaked tampons stuffed up your nose" plan.
That's just a typical saturday night at the trailer-park.
You'll go broke in no time.
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"Blah blah my bike is faster than yours around a technical track". Yawn. Well I on my feet can beat your small bike in a race of 100 laps around my couch
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:29 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I don't consider disc brakes a safety aid because they're not a safety aid. I see them as a performance upgrade. ABS is not a performance upgrade as it does not perform better in all circumstances and situations. Stickier tires are not 'safer' if you never get them too or keep them at ideal operating temperature.
I don't pretend for one instant that the likes of ABS or any other technology improvement is or should be considered a replacement for rider skill. You can stick a man in a tank but if he drives it off a cliff he's dead.

However these features such as ABS and traction control in the hands of a skilled rider can make him/her push the bike harder and faster and ride longer in more comfort than was previously possible.

Now I agree with those folks who don't like having new technology forced upon us by the man. A lot of people ride just so they can stick it to the man, these people are called chopper riders, but as long as we have a choice I'm happy.

As it stands ABS is still optional on a large majority of new motorcycles... If I was buying a new bike, would I pay an extra grand for ABS? Hell no! If I bought a new-ish second hand bike that had ABS would it bother me? Not in the slightest.

That's why I say there are very valid arguments on both sides. What I must disagree with is one person saying anothers argument is invalid, because to me that just sounds unreasonable.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:39 PM   #43 (permalink)
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That argument was invalid as sticky, radial tires, disc brakes, and elctronic ignition are not safety features or rider aids when compared to bias ply, drum, or mechanical ignition. I'll give him acetylene headlights over halogen (but not HID over halogen)...something about heating up a filament in expolsive gas doesn't sit well with me.
TC, WC, and ABS are all completely new systems. They are not improvements to existing systems. An improvement to your braking system would be a master cyclinder, stainless lines, new calipers, pads, rotors. Basically, replacing something already there. ABS is an additional system and it doesn't make a bike safer. It may provide you with the illusion of safety knowing that the system will kick in and not allow the wheel to lock up, but here is a novel idea...don't hammer the brakes so hard that they lock up!



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Last edited by 04RDA; 11-29-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:25 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Sticky tires are not a safety aid. Disc over drum brakes are not a safety aid. Radial over tube ply are not safety aid. Digital ignition over manual ignition is not a safety aid.
.
First of all you completely misunderstand what I mean about manual ignition curve control. You're far too young to remember, and almost certainly never broke an ankle trying to kickstart a bike on full advance.

For the rest, you're talking utter bollocks. All of those things were introduced for increased safety. The fact that some of them also let us ride faster is just a useful bonus.

Rob
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Old 11-30-2012, 04:33 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RacinJason44 View Post
It's amazing how some people cannot, or simply are not willing to differentiate between something that is a mechanical device that only responds to your input versus a computer that does the thinking for you.


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So let's start by junking the ECU which handles your fuelling and ignition so that you don't have to think about it.

ABS systems don't 'think', btw. They compare the input from two sensors and follow a strict set of rules. They're no different in concept to a slipper clutch which lets go when the load exceeds a pre set measure. Why is one good and the other bad? It's role is to override your input when you get it wrong. I can control the clutch well enough to have no need of a slipper, except perhaps to gain a tiny fraction of a second on a track, but I don't hear anybody saying that the new 300 shouldn't have one because it takes skill away from the rider.

And just to reiterate - I don't think these systems should be mandatory. I don't have any objections to them being fitted but I want to be able to disable them. I don't want to be force to pay extra for them. I don't want to persuade anybody that they should use these systems.

I do want to challenge woolly thinking and illogical positions and the luddite mentality that rejects anything that doesn't clearly make the bike faster. Most of you never get anywhere near the limits of what your bikes can do anyway.

And anybody who doesn't think that a modern tyre is a safety aid should try riding on an old Avon SMll with a completely square section. I suspect that most of you would shit yourselves on the first gentle bend. I know I probably would, and I learned to ride on them.

Rob

Last edited by williamr; 11-30-2012 at 04:44 AM.
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Old 11-30-2012, 05:09 AM   #46 (permalink)
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It's kind of like going from vinyl, to CD to MP3... There are still collectors of Vinyl records and there are still companies that make them but the majority of the world uses mp3s.
This is off thread, but the reason for listening to MP3s is convenience. The sound is noticeably poorer than vinyl, especially for high frequencies and transients such as cymbals. Doesn't matter much to me as in my 60s my hearing struggles at those frequencies anyway, but I can still hear the difference.

Trouble with vinyl is that it scratches. Best compromise is WAV files, but they're big. The whole point of the MP3 is to squeeze the content into a small file size and reduced audio quality is the trade off. It's great for the person who has 10,000 tracks running as audible 'wallpaper', but not so good for the person who sits in a quiet room to really listen to just a few tracks.

CDs (WAV files) initially were a very clinical sound and not particularly nice to listen to, but the mechanical advantages over vinyl made it worth persevering and improving the sound. The same thing will happen over time to most of the new systems fitted to bikes and cars. My own personal favorite is a new rear view system for cars which projects a hologram of a camera view outside the rear of the car onto the rear seats, so that the the back of the car effectively becomes transparent to the driver. That will eventually save the lives of a lot of children, and for the owners of cars like mine with very restricted rear vision will save a lot of money in touch up paint. I'll admit that it takes away some of the skill of guessing where the corners of the car are and what's hiding out of sight, but I can live with that.

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Old 11-30-2012, 07:42 AM   #47 (permalink)
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That's just a typical saturday night at the trailer-park.
You'll go broke in no time.

This is a good point, should have known better when Whitey was the first one to sign up for a policy.
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Old 11-30-2012, 03:15 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I think motorcycles will eventually be like it is for cars. Most drivers do not know what to do in a panic situation, slam on the brakes and fail to corner properly. ABS braking, electronic stability control and airbags will soon be required for all cars built, and if you want the cheaper version with less safety equipment you have to buy used or a kit car.

Companies want their customers to live a longer life, so they can buy a new vehicle later.

Like airbags for cars, the future ABS and traction control systems will be better, with less for well trained drivers to complain about, and mass production instead of a rare option will greatly lower the extra cost.

This part of the history of car seat belts was interesting to me:

"In 1958, Saab decided to install seat belts for the first time for the front seat of their popular GT 750.

When the state of Victoria in Australia passed a seat belt law in 1970, in America it was likely that 9 out of 10 people probably didn't fasten their seat belts. Maybe it was more apt to happen when going out on the U.S.'s recently built interstates.

Other countries in Europe managed to pass mandatory seat belt-wearing laws, after Australia proved through annual statistics that wearing seat belts there was saving lives.

Oddly, Australia's direct link of the U.K. couldn't seem to pass a seat belt-wearing law until 1983.

Seat belt-wearing laws started popping up in most American states around 2000."

from The History of the Seatbelt in American Cars - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:27 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by williamr View Post
First of all you completely misunderstand what I mean about manual ignition curve control. You're far too young to remember, and almost certainly never broke an ankle trying to kickstart a bike on full advance.

For the rest, you're talking utter bollocks. All of those things were introduced for increased safety. The fact that some of them also let us ride faster is just a useful bonus.

Rob
You have no idea how old or young I am. Or what my mechanical experience is. And I've never almost broken a leg trying to kickstart anything because I'm not a fucking idiot.
All of those things were designed for better performance, added safety is the bonus when the equipment is used properly.
ABS only works if you push beyond the point of performance. TC only works if you push past the limit of performance. Systems like this don't make things safer. They provide the illusion of safety to people who don't know how to ride/drive within theirs and the vehicles limits.


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Last edited by 04RDA; 11-30-2012 at 07:35 PM.
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