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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Took the cams out to change the valve shims...

well we turned the engine over while the cams were out and obviously moved the chain...

question is did I f the timing up? and how do i get the camshaft to go back in right?
I can't seem to get the cams to seat right without pressig down on the valve buckets.
like a jackass, i did not mark the cams or chain with a felt pen. And I have a factory pro Advancer that doesn't specify 1&4 or 2&3.
 

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time it like you normally would in the manual... you can turn the crankshaft to your heart's content without the cams in the head and you'll do no harm or damage. as long as you get the proper cylinder back to TDC (4 on a kawasaki as they're timed on the right side of the motor, but #1 is also at TDC at the same time, obvs)

the pistons do not determine whether the motor is at TDC compression or TDC exhaust, the cams do. so as long as you start with the the crank at TDC for pistons 1 and 4 it'll be right.

the valves are never all closed. you'll be opening valves when installing cams which is why it's important to evenly seat the cam caps.

you do have a factory service manual, right? know how to use the pin count?
 

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^ you could still install install them 180* off by this simplified explanation. But atleast no valves will hit and if it doesn't start you get some more practice redoing it to switch them 180* from where you have them.
 

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there's an easier way to find out whether the mark on the timing rotor is 1/4 or 2/3, of course. stick a long 1/4" drive extension in the #4 cylinder spark plug hole. turn the motor through. when it reaches TDC or close to it you'll know because the extension will be sticking out much farther than it would if the mark was #2/3 TDC
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I do have the service manual.

So I guess my problem is figuring out that I'm at 1&4TDC and not 2&3.

I do not know what the pin count means.

Is it normal that the cams dont seat right ontop of the buckets? O can't get the cam cap to go back on because the cams are being pushed up by the buckets.
 

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I explained both of those problems already. Just know if you fuck up the timing you'll be spending a ton of money to fix it.

PinCount is used to set timing. It's in the manual
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I explained both of those problems already. Just know if you fuck up the timing you'll be spending a ton of money to fix it.

PinCount is used to set timing. It's in the manual


Ok well I understand your method of finding out if its piston 1&4.
I still don't understand if its normal for all the valves to be open when the cams are out?
So when putting the camshaft cap back on in the specified order. It will push the valve buckets down too? This changes the position of my crankshaft and changes the timing. I'm not putting it back together until I get the timing right. I do not have the money to f everything up

Sorry if I'm not quite grasping the concept.
 

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When the cams are out all the valves are closed. when you install the cams the lobes will push some of the valves open. This is normal. Valves opening will not turn your crankshaft.
 

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Do you have the small side cover removed from the right side of engine? If you don't, you should. The ignition rotor in there is marked for 1-4 and 2-3....you line the mark up with a mark cast into a boss in the case.
 

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he said he had a factory pro ignition rotor, and that it wasn't clear as to whether it was marked 1/4 or 2/3. i'm guessing what he is saying is that it has just one hash mark.

more than likely if that's the case it's 1/4, but you still have to be positive.
 

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^ you could still install install them 180* off by this simplified explanation. But atleast no valves will hit and if it doesn't start you get some more practice redoing it to switch them 180* from where you have them.
how can you time it 180deg off when i told him to make sure he had the proper cylinder at TDC? the only way that's possible with #4 at TDC is to put the cams themselves in 180deg off.
 

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#1 and #4 are both at TDC at the same time-but the ignition timing of one is firing on the compression stroke and the other is not on the exhuast stroke-so yes you can easily be 180* off with your cam timing--It does not sound like to me that he will know which is on the firing stroke and which is not. ( I see a dozen or more DIYers each year who make this very mistake )
 

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that's not how the marks on the timing rotor work, especially on older bikes. they use a wasted spark ignition system. both #1 and #4 cylinder spark plugs fire simultaneously. both are BTDC at this point, but only one is BTDCC, obviously. the other is BTDCEx.

you'll note there are usually only two marks on any timing rotor, many only have one. 1/4 and 2/3. as long as you have it on 1/4 the timing will be correct.

and you claim to be a mechanic, don't you? time to go hit the books
 

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I counted 29 pins as opposed to the book's 30. I couldn't get 30 with the marks perfectly lined up. It was either 29 or 31. Can't really tell if I lost any power. Bike seems to run better now (which is probably due to shimming).
 

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I counted 29 pins as opposed to the book's 30. I couldn't get 30 with the marks perfectly lined up. It was either 29 or 31. Can't really tell if I lost any power. Bike seems to run better now (which is probably due to shimming).
make sure you use steel washers ;)
 

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yea line the flat lines up on the came to the top of the head and on the crank do the same line the mark up to where the casin splits tdc on #1 and #2 i beleive it is put and have the chain on the exhaust side tight when the cam is in the prop spot then what i usually do is put the cam cap on loosly and go ahead and put the chain tensioner in that will hold the chain down on the sames then go ahead and tighten all the cam cap bolts 104 in lbs i think prolly wrong though hahaha doudle check that haha
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
ok thanks "goingtoscotland" you are the man.

Yeah my factory pro advancer only has hash marks no numbers it does have two marks.
i pulled the spark plug on piston 4 and dropped in a long allen wrench. i then turned the crankshaft while keeping the chain taught untill the allen wrench was at it highest while making sure the hash mark ia lined up on the case split. So i got it 1&4 TDC

however...... as i put the cams in, they sit high because of the closed valves and when i press down on the it spins the advancer off the TDC mark on the case.... this is where i got confused
 

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the crank is probably rotating because you still have the spark plugs in the motor. take them out whenever you're going to do something like this and put some paper towel or newspaper in the tunnels to prevent anything falling in the cylinder.

make sure the intake and exhaust cams are in properly and not swapped.

the lobes on cyl 4 when you install should look like this \ / exhaust should be pointed about 45deg up from horizontal facing the front of the motor and the intake should be the same only facing the back of the motor. the valves on cyl4 should not be opened by the cams when installing the cams because you're at TDCCompression(all valves closed) on cyl 4.

install the cam cap very carefully and evenly because if you crack the cam cap you're gonna be in for a huge parts bill.

read the manual regarding timing and pin count like 10 times to make sure you know what's going on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
yeah i have read the manual about this timing thing a hundred times. i even printed out all 333 pages of it at work so i could bring the "top end" portion around with me to reference back to if i have a question haha.

yeah i still had the spark plugs in, mostly only because the ones i ordered with the new gaskets didn't come. so ill take those out.
my cam lobes are as you explained and as they were when i removed them. the shafts are clearly marked IN and EX so that was a no-brainer.

as long aas you say its normal for me to have to push on the valves when i seat the cam cap then ill be ok. It just threw me off when trying to reinstall the cap and i had a 1-2 inch gap because the cams wouldnt sit right.

I appreciate the feedback...the good feedback.... and ill let you guys know what happens.
 
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