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Discussion Starter #1
I thought some of you may be interested in what a Power Commander was worth on a stock bike, so here’s some dyno results. In all tests the bike has the stock pipe, gearing and tires and 91 pump gas. I’ve decided to keep the stock pipe (for a while at least), and am interested in what I can get out of the bike with it.

The bike is a 2003 636. I broke it in on the dyno, and after the break in routine, it put down 107.4 hp at peak. The correction factor at that time was 1.08. Total miles on the bike was 40.

At around 1000 miles, I switched to synthetic oil (Royal Purple), and went back to the dyno (same dyno). The baseline run was 110.8 hp at peak. The correction factor was 1.05. Between the motor loosening up and the synthetic oil it picked up a little over 3 hp.

I had installed a Power Commander USB, and had been running the Dynojet map for the stock bike. We set it back to the zero (stock values) map for the above baseline. I next installed a K&N filter, and ran it with the zero map. Virtually no difference. Seems the only value of the K&N over the stock filter is you never have to replace it.

Next step was to run the Dynojet map for the stock bike. There was no map available for a stock pipe with a K&N (not that it would have made a difference).
Note the huge increase in torque (~10 ft-lbs) and HP over the stock map between 3500 and 5000. This shows how lean the stock map is for emissions in that range. However, you can see there is no gain in peak HP, and only about one HP is gained past peak at redline. Here’s the chart:



Next was a full custom map. The bike was mapped on the dyno throughout the rev range at all throttle positions. If you’ve never had a custom map done on an FI bike you don’t know what you’re missing. If you are in AZ, Walter at ECS Dyno in Mesa is THE guy to go to. If you look at the chart above, you can see the DJ map pretty much mirrors the stock curve, with a big gain between 3500 and 5000, and a slight gain on top. Here’s what a custom map will do:



As you can see it’s very beneficial to have a custom map made. The maps from DJ are a good starting point, and are better than the stock map, but there is room for significant improvement. The bike made 112.3 peak HP, with good gains past peak to redline, with over 110 HP from 12k to 14k. What is really noticeable, is the gain in the low end and midrange. The stock bike often felt a little flat at street speeds, with the custom map it pulls much harder, making squirting around in traffic a lot easier. It should also drive off the corners at the track a little harder.

As a side note, the correction factor remained at 1.05 throughout the custom mapping, although the temperature increased around 5 deg. This may have caused a drop of 1-1.5 peak HP, according to my tuner. He rides a ‘Busa that runs 9.30’s on the motor at 60” wheelbase, and has over 300 dyno runs, just on that bike, so he knows how things go on the dyno.

Anyway some food for thought….

Next, I may test the Kawi supersport kit velocity stacks…
 

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Excellent post from start to finish, and one that members will be able to refer to and learn from. Nicely done mister...

Confirms what I've believed for some time now with regards to both custom mapping and the PCIIIusb system in itself over stock.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks! There's so much BS out there. I try to share the information I gain through testing, and to include enough information that people can make informed decision.

Custom mapping is truly one of the best things you can do for a FI bike. My ZX-12 picked up 8 hp at peak over the generic map with a custom map! Not to mention the huge improvement in driveability. So many folks just slap on a pipe and load up a generic map and never know what they're missing...
 

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When you say generic map, what exactly do you mean? Let me explain further. If i have a full akra evo exhaust on my bike, and downloaded the akra full exhaust from the power commander website, are you calling that a generic map? Would it make much of a difference if i went and got a custom dyno map for my bike, or is the map from power commander website sufficeint? Thanks
 

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Originally posted by Rodan
In all tests the bike has the stock pipe, gearing and tires and 91 pump gas.
Good post.

The gearing makes no difference. The bike will make the same power at a given rpm. With shorter gearing, it will just get there sooner.

I like to see charts that show SAE units, the standard in the US, on the vertical axes. STD units read a bit higher, but can be used to compare before and after results on your bike.

The tach on the bike is optimistic, which is why the curves end before 15,500 rpm. At peak horsepower on the dyno, what rpm does it show on the bike?
 

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Excellent post. Rodan thanks for all the info. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #8
godsdozer: Yes, I am referring to the maps that you get from DJ as 'generic'. They were done on a representative bike by DJ. All engines are slightly different, or conditions where you live may be different from the location where DJ made their map. You will most likely see some benefit by having a custom map made. It may not be a huge difference in peak HP, but you will likely gain in driveability.

Rob Lee: Yes, you're right about the gearing, but I like to put all the info out there. The SAE numbers are probably more "correct" (it's about 4% difference if I remember right), but it seems that most of the dyno tuners are using STD, so it's easy for folks to compare. As you say, its all relative, and the only real comparison is the before and after. Since I wasn't actually on the bike for the runs I can't say what the tach read at peak power. It wasn't a question I thought to ask. As the bike was just touching the limiter at the top of the runs, I would guess the tach is reading around 1k high at redline.
 

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thats the only guy i ever hear about when people talk about dyno's in az. very informitive post rodan, thank you. how much did it cost you? i heard somewhere round' 150 bux.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Walter charges around $200.00 for a full custom map. HP runs and diagnostic runs are around $20-40, I think. Don't quote me. :)

His number is 480-593-4269, and no I don't get kickbacks (I wish :D)...he's just a friend who does great work!
 

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WOW, I'm severely impressed!
At my shop here in South Florida, we actually have the model 250 dyno where we can tune carburated bikes as well as make custom maps for FI bikes. 2 of my mechaincs when to Dynojet school in Vegas to learn how to make a custom map. The gentleman who invented the dynojet dyno (Mark Dobeck) is a good friend of my stepfathers (the owner of my shop), he comes down twice a year to give us new feedback and new information. He actually sold the company about 7 years ago and started to invent the TFI (Techlusion Fuel Injection Control Box AKA Fuel Nanny) the man is a genius! Although the TFI give the bike the fuel it needs to correct the ratio when you change the exhaust or more...it does not have the ability that the PC has to take away fuel when needed. The PC has 275 ranges where fuel can be added and taken away, thats where a map is built. The internet has basic maps that you can download that are "suposedly" for your bike with your mods...this is not true, this will get you down the street but the bike won't run perfect or give you the extra HP it is capable of having. In some cases, like just a slip-on, you can get away with a downloaded map, or even without changeing the fuel/air ratio at all (like myself, I don't have a PC or a TFI, but I have a Hindle slip-on I don't need the extra HP :D). Too many times I have heard guys come to me to see why his bike is backfiring and is hard to start....it's the map!!! Once we make the custom map, not only do they have more HP due to the proper air/fuel mixture, but they also have no more running problems!
Custom mapping is by far the best way to go, but just be sure you have done all the performance upgrades to the bike before you get your custome map done. Iroman, you said your guy charged $200...well we charge $275 (actually everything is expensive at my shop...oops)....$30 for just a HP and air/fuel reading....
ALSO, one last thing.....if you go to the shop that has a dyno, and he tells you he can make you a custom map, ask him which dyno he has. If he does not have a model 250 or newer, he is lieing (it is impossible!!)...the model 250 is load controled (meaning we can hold the bike useing a brakeing system, at different RPMs and map that exact area. If he does NOT have a brake on the dyno (the load controled portion of the dyno) then he is lieing!!! Your best bet is to check the dynojet website of the "tuning link centers" that will be the best thing to lead you in the right direction! (we are listed...hehe....Blais Cycle in Miami, FL)
I will take some pictures of our dyno and post them for you if you'd like! :D
 

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sorry, one more thing....according to Mark Dobeck, the bikes come swtock with a PERFECT map....by installing a PC to a stock bike, you are doing nothing....we have yet to test this because we just believed what he had said and won't take money from a customer to give him nothing in return...
 

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Originally posted by MotorcykleAsh
according to Mark Dobeck, the bikes come swtock with a PERFECT map....by installing a PC to a stock bike, you are doing nothing
This thread shows that he is not quite right.

Check out this bit from the article "Electrickery" in the March 2001 issue of Performance Bikes. I have posted it once and again.

Injection ... delivers a predetermined amount of fuel, according to a 3D map programmed into the CPU.

The map (both fuelling and ignition) supplied with your bike will be a compromise, designed to work across production tolerances, in tune with noise restrictions, emissions and with fuel consumption borne in mind. In most cases, it has to be said, this works bloody well on your out-of-the-showroom superbike.

There may, though, be the well-documented flatspot where the noise regs are measured (4-5000-ish rpm). And although the air/fuel ratio may be very close to the sweet spot, it hasn't been exactly matched to the needs of your individual engine.

If you want your injection's fuelling matched exactly to your bike, then this can be achieved using a Power Commander, a load-control dyno and the appropriate software.


A stock bike can make use of a custom map. The original poster did a good job of showing that here.
 

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OK, and I give him props for trying....unfortunatly my customers are looking for the MAX HP for their bike...most bikes arond here don't keep a stock exhaust longer then the break-in period...so I have honestly only had one person ever even ask me about mapping their stock bike...so, I just don't see the point in the money being spent if you are going to change the bike performance mods in the near future....
I wasn't saying he was wrong...I'm glad iroman has posted and proven the theory...I also agree with you that he should change to SAE...
Also, one question....was the shop you went to able to type in the altitude with his dynojet program?
We have the WinPep7 program where that is not possible...the computer has sensors that can read all of the information...
 

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Has anyone else noticed how awful the torque curve on the bike is? There are some huge peaks and dips under 6k rpms, and one last HUGE jump and dip at 7500-9k rpms? There's something seriously wrong if a bike with FI is all over the place like that.

My guess is that there's either a problem with the bike (maybe a loose drivechain), or a problem with the electrics, like a bad ground, or faulty connector somewhere on the bike. Maybe an intake or exhaust connection isn't perfectly tight, and is leaking air.

That bike needs to be looked at. Something's wrong with it.
BC.
 

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Wow, this is an interesting post thanks Rodan and Ash for posting what you've found out! at first i wasn't thinking about a power commander, now i'm having second thoughts
 

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Blade, might have to do with the load control or the graphing of the machine. If you check out most reading-only comparisons on different websites (www.sportrider.com for example), the 636 is actually one of the most linear in the class. Yes, there is generally shown a minor dip between 7k and just under 8k when the bike is known to really develop its "snap"... but aftermarket exhausts have been known to help smooth this out a lot.

Here's a link to the horsepower and torque charts for the 2003 600's... Yeah the Honda might be more torque-linear, but the Kawi is still more linear than the Suzuki or the Yamaha, and rarely gets faulted for its delivery in reviews. Really, in terms of having dips or flat spots in the powerband, it's a pretty smooth overall curve. And I think Rodan's graphs look pretty darn linear.
 

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Originally posted by MotorcykleAsh
sorry, one more thing....according to Mark Dobeck, the bikes come swtock with a PERFECT map.
Afraid I too have to take issue with this comment. I think it may have been taken out of context or misinterpreted? It's fairly widely known that the stock map is NOT in fact perfect, at least in terms of being fully optimized. They are generally found to be lean, whether for factory emission reasons or whatever, and are not in fact optimized for fuel-air ratio under load throughout the powerband. Both Dynojet and Techlusion (!!!)comment on their sites that this is the case, and I believe Rodan's post is more than enough proof to this extent.

Mark's own website (www.techlusion.com) states:

"That's correct in that our product only adds fuel. We designed it that way to keep it simple and affordable. It is our belief that in almost every situation, addition of fuel is what fuel injected bikes need. They are mapped by the factory to be lean in cruise and everyday driving conditions to meet emission standards and if you decide to change, most aftermarket exhaust systems tend to reduce back pressure which leans out the fuel even more."
Maybe he meant "perfect" in that it provides for good emissions control for the rider who doesn't demand the max performance from his engine?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
OK.
MotorcykleAsh: This was on a 250 w/ load control and the WinPEP software. Correction factor is automatically computed. I'm keeping the stock pipe on the pipe on the bike because I like the 'stealth' nature of it, and I like to tinker. I want to see what is possible with a stock pipe and some serious tuning/ fiddling. This is just the first step. And it's great fun to spank someone who just slapped on a $1500 pipe without doing any thinking or tuning when you've still got a stock pipe... :D Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to belittle folks for putting on a pipe, but HP is not the reason I bought this bike. If that was the case, I would have kept my ZX-12.

Bladecutter: I haven't seen any charts for the '6 other than mine, so I don't have a point of a comparison. If you have one, I'd like to see it to compare. Remember, on a low HP bike like the '6, the scale is small, so you see every wrinkle. We carefully checked the chain tension before putting the bike on the dyno, and the A/F showed no indication of a leak or FI problem anywhere. Tire slip is a possiblity, but we didn't run into that on my '12 on the same dyno (180+HP), so I don't think so.

Also, I would agree that the stock map is certainly not optimized for a particular bike, nor is the map you get from DJ. Too many concessions are made for emissions/noise, especially in the low/mid range.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Alright, I jumped over to the SportRider page, and although their graph is at a much lower resolution, the torque curve they measured is quite a bit less linear than mine.

If I've got something to be concerned about, I'd love to know it.

Anyone else have a chart to post?
 
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