[Toaster]

I can't answer your question. But wouldn't it be cheaper, safer, and easier to switch to bigger fuel jets? You are using a wet system aren't you?

-2000 ZX-6R.....

__________

 

[barnes]

I just added a 40Hp N.O.S system to my new "03 ZX6R, very strong midrange but gets a little lean in top end? Running nearly 140-145Hp does any one know were to get a Yoshimura adjustable mapping system so u can change the map for low rev's and top end as u are ridding?? Much needed if any one can help, would recomend N.O.S to anyone who wants endless wheelies anywhere in the rev's? Blow off all those R1's

 

[josh1095_1]

sure hope for your sake you can remove that nos shit and take it in for warranty work. keep ridin those "endless wheelies". your gonna melt those little fuckin pistons/rings in there. i guarantee you if you run it hard with nos in it you will lose some serious compression numbers in a couple months or less. heard too many horror stories of the shit. seen a number of people kill hondas cuz they put those kits in there and didnt do the other mods they needed.

 

[bladecutter]

Barnes,

Of course its going to lean out the top end, that's what nitrous oxide does. The nitrogen molecule is seperated from oxygen molecule when subjected to intense heat. So what basically happens is that you introduce a huge amount of pure oxygen right inside the combustion chamber at the very moment ignition takes place.

If you don't rejet the engine properly for the nitrous, you will sooner or later destroy the pistons because of severe detonation. So what you will need to do is install larger and larger main jets until you have it jetted properly when you are "on the bottle".

Of course that means that your bike will run like crap when you open it up when you aren't on the bottle, but thats the trade off.

Personally, nitrous shouldn't be installed on vehicles that are going to be used for normal everyday stuff. To make the nitrous work properly, the fuel system needs to be dedicated for nitrous.

Oh, and by the way, if you properly rejetted the bike for when its on the bottle, I'm sure you would see a much greater increase than JUST 40 hp. Probably closer to 55 or 60.

BC.


I didn't do it, I swear.
And even if I did, what makes you think I would admit it to you?

 

[yratellim]

Holy hell, why didn't you just get a GSXR1000?

 

[barnes]

For starters i don't use my bike everyday only on weekends and i don't run endless wheelies i was just stating u could (it helps get it up though) i have a friend of mine making some titanium high stess pistons to handle the extra heat, i run a dry set up with N.O.S only coming on on full throttle, Which means how long do u hold it on full throttle?? so u'r only getting a 5-10 second shot max of N.O.S so it doesn't run constanly i regularly play with it on the dyno to get the fuel right. With only a small shot 30-40Hp the repercutions aren't that bad? I don;t have warranty on my bike cause i got it from bike dealer who had already had it returned with a voild warranty for installing a ignition advancer on it so i got it for AUS$8,000 (mates rates) nearly half price. Otherwise i wouldn't be playing with it.

 

[ninja_strike]

Come on Blade Strike..

Barnes has a 03 zx6r, that means its F.I (FUEL INJECTED)-> you dont REJET FI'ed bikes -> you need to remap the FI. Witch is what he is asking about! Get your facts straight before you bash someone!

Now barnes I know that there is about 50 other things you could have bought with the money you paid for a N.O.S. system, but to each his own. But if you got the bike half price then you will only blow half the money you could have I guess!

 

[spartan 116]

Originally posted by bladecutter

Barnes,

The nitrogen molecule is seperated from oxygen molecule when subjected to intense heat. So what basically happens is that you introduce a huge amount of pure oxygen right inside the combustion chamber at the very moment ignition takes place.

not quite right IMO. the thing that makes it so powerful is the bonds of the molecule. when the bond between the two molecules are broken that is what releases so much energy.
hey waddya know high school chem is good for something

give me fuel give me fire give me that which i desire

 

[-gary]

Originally posted by spartan 116
not quite right IMO. the thing that makes it so powerful is the bonds of the molecule. when the bond between the two molecules are broken that is what releases so much energy.

Not true. The oxygen is liberated from the nitrogen by heat, and the free oxygen helps produce a faster burn rate, thus increasing cylinder pressure, which is how power is created. When running on nitrous, you actually use fuel to tame the burn rate and keep the combustion temps down.

-gary
'02 6R

 

[Toaster]

barnes, you can have your friend make your pistons out of whatever you want. If the fuel/ratio runs lean, it'll detonate and hole any piston you can come up with. 5-10 seconds... doesn't mean dick. It only takes a second to blow up a lean running engine at WOT. Don't be fooled into thinking a few seconds are safe for the engine. 30-40 shot is HUGE for an engine making roughly 100-110 to begin with. If you saved up all that money on the bike, the least you could do is to get the fuel curve dialed in. Get rid of that hokey dry system and go with a proper wet system. That way you can run a safe mixture on the juice without having your bike run like piss at all other times.

ninja_strike, get your facts straight. You don't re-map your fuel curve unless you have a separate map to run on the juice. Otherwise, you'll just end up with a shitty running engine that only runs well about 1% of the time while shooting nitrous.


-2000 ZX-6R.....

__________

 

[bladecutter]

Ahh, I didn't catch the fact that its one of the '03's with F/I. Still, like the other guy said, you still need to have a seperate fuel curve map that kicks in the INSTANT you turn on the juice.

Ninja_Strike:
I didn't bash anyone in my post. I just put the facts out like they are. Unless an engine is properly set up to compensate for the increase in oxygen added by nitrous, its going to die a horrible death. And please don't change my name. Either call me Bladecutter, like it is, or BC for short. That's disrespectful.

For spartan and gary, the truth is actually someplace in the middle of the two. I stated it in the easiest terms to understand. When the nitrous is hit with the extreme heat and pressure of the compression cycle and the ignition spark, the N and O atoms are seperated from each other. Granted there is a certain amount of energy released just frfom the two atoms being seperated, but the atoms DON'T have that strong a bond to each other in the first place. The energy released is not that much.

The power increase assosiated with nitrous is caused by the freeing of the O atoms, directly in the combustion chamber, which greatly enhances the intensity of the combustion that takes place. Because of this increased combustion event, everything in the combustion chamber is subject to mugh higher levels of heat and pressure.

If there is a flaw in any of the engine components, the engine will blow up. If there is too much detonation occurring over too long a period of time, the piston will probably have a hole burned into it, which can lead to an air/fuel charge being sent into the crankcase, and when the next ignition even occurs, there is a grreat possibility of the entire engine gernading, blowing the side of the engine block apart, and setting the oil in the engine on fire.

Having a motor gernade below you, and turn you into a broiled rider is a crappy thing. That's why I don't recommend nitrous on street bikes, period. The possibility of danger if the bike is not PROPERLY set up for it is too great, in my opinion.

I stand by that statement, and any others I have made.
BC.


I didn't do it, I swear.
And even if I did, what makes you think I would admit it to you?

 

[barnes]

Didn't mean to cause any trouble with this post?? After some of your advice with streetbikes and the extra work involved and possible expences if the bike go's bang, i might remove it and put it in my go-kart for some fun and a bit safer and simpler

 

[spartan 116]

hey no worries, heated disscusions are kinda fun so long no one gets burned too bad. hey bladecutter you sure know how to calm the masses.
and barnes if you want all that power just get a bigger bore bike. wheelies are only one skill in riding crotch rockets and you can still do pretty good roll-on wheelies on a 6r.
nuts i still have to get myself nerved up to start practising wheelies[:I]

give me fuel give me fire give me that which i desire

 

[varneyc]

Not to mention Nitrous Oxide is NO2. Thats one molecule of nitrogen to 2 molecules of oxygen. Nitrogen is jsut a by product of combustion anyway, so take that out of the equation. However adding the extra oxygen to the mix during combustion does make the engine run lean. The "power on tap" affect also comes from the cooling effect of the nitrous. On car engines, it has been known to drop an engines temp to 25 degrees or more(depending on application) and as we all know, heat is bad. Run the quarter on an 85 degree day, then run it again on a 55 degree day and see the time slip difference. However, wont make a difference in your reaction time I dont know much about installing NOS on a carbuerated system however, I have done a lot of homework on NOS with my 240SX and when I had the 300ZX(nos is the only way to get that heavy ass car moving) But most kits like the Venom computer controlled kit and Jim Wolfe Technologies both have a switch that is activated by the TPS(throttle position sensor) at WOT. Thus sending a new fuel map to the ECU so there is no chance of detonation. Everyone here is right, you run it lean at all you can detonate causing the cylinder walls to be grooved by expanding rings/pistons, and all around not cool stuff. Just thought I'd drop some info here and maybe put my endless hours behind the computer screen downing mountain dew doing homework, to good use. Sorry for the long entry here

Go Green, but let the others have the envy

 

[hammer]

my .02cents.....

I'm a big fan of nitrous I've had the benefit of friends that have bottomless wallets so I got to set a few systems up. they are picky and should be adjusted for the weather conditions of the day which makes it really only feasable for the track. NOS has some great info here---> http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/TechServ/TechInfo/NOSTech3.html

IMHO the real mission is to build cylinder pressure and it can be done with Nitrous, Turbo, cams etc.

I would perfer to use a turbo on the street as it is way easier to setup and much more forgiving. The only down side is the expense but, it's hard to say no to 180hp of power that builds across the powerband and its super trick. [8D] If I had a fuel injected bike I would definately go this route and likely skip the expense of aftermarket exhaust although, the exhaust would help fight the turbo lag. Of course, there isn't much weight to deal with anyway so lag might be a good thing.

Who's your muppet?

 

[milesmcever]

Just to KILL the stupid rumers about NOS it comes out to about 23% oxygen to the rest nitrogen. The air you breath is 21% oxygen the reason it gives you horse power is the same as a turbo charged car. The air goes in compressed and cold there for you have more expansion not that there is a better burn rate. It is used because it is not flamable but is closest to the air you breath so you do not have to change as much to make your engine take it. Hey i think getting that much horse power out of a 6 is great a bigger bike would give him that power but more reliable, yeah but what fun would that be?

 

[hammer]

Originally posted by milesmcever

Just to KILL the stupid rumers about NOS it comes out to about 23% oxygen to the rest nitrogen. The air you breath is 21% oxygen the reason it gives you horse power is the same as a turbo charged car. The air goes in compressed and cold there for you have more expansion not that there is a better burn rate. It is used because it is not flamable but is closest to the air you breath so you do not have to change as much to make your engine take it. Hey i think getting that much horse power out of a 6 is great a bigger bike would give him that power but more reliable, yeah but what fun would that be?

Amen brother!

 

[-gary]

Originally posted by milesmcever
The air goes in compressed and cold there for you have more expansion not that there is a better burn rate.

Not so fast. The only difference (besides a colder/denser intake charge) between a turbo and nitrous, is that it does not require a closed system. The expansion of the gas has next to nothing to do with power production, only the amount of oxygen introduced. A turbo does it by pressurizing the intake tract. Nitrous does it by introducing a ~900psi liquid into a ~14psi environment.

Either way, the oxygen is the accelerant. It is used to accelerate the burn rate of the fuel. Power is the amount of energy used in a given amount of time (P=E/t), therefore the more energy used in a given amount of time produces more power. Fuel is what produces power in an engine, nothing else. Adding more fuel without oxygen, causes a longer burn time that does not synch well with the dwell time of the piston. The only way to increase the amount of fuel burned and either keep or shorten the amount of time needed to burn that amount, is to add more accelerant. In this case, oxygen, which indeed produces a faster burn rate that allows for the delivery of more fuel in the same amount of time, consequentially producing more power.

Is this clear enough?

 

[hammer]

I can't say I disagree completly with you gary. However, with that being said, I always thought that the focus was on cramming as much A/F mixture into the cylinder as possible to combat the internal combustion engine's notorious inneficiancy. nitrous being cold allows for a more dense A/F mixture thus greater power potential (higher volumetric efficiency). (much like how my 6r can do power wheelies in second at -5deg.C with my 300 pound ass and can barely do a Whee at 20degC) Most fuel injected systems are capable of dealing with increased demand for fuel, some need higher flow injectors to be added. It also results in higher cylinder pressure as a result of the extra A/F mix. In all probability, the oxogenation effect you were describing was possibly a nice bonus effect.

If you shorten burn time you only give the piston an initial kick to get going and then rely mostly on inertia to continue the piston moving through the power stroke High octane fuels typically burn slower resulting in continued force being applied throughout the power stroke.

what do you think? am I out to lunch or what?

 

[-gary]

The fact that N2O is cold has very little to do with the amount of oxygen that it can carry. While it's true that being colder will let it carry more, it's more than offset by the fact that under the pressure inside the bottle, N2O is in a liquid state. Directly spraying the liquid into the intake tract releases an enormous amount of oxygen into the combustion chamber when the liquid expands into a gas. The main benefit of the colder charge, is lowering the intact tracts ambient temperature to combat the premature expansion of the fuel in the tract. The more raw atomized fuel you can deliver to the cylinder, the more consistent the fuel burn is. The more consistent the burn, the more raw fuel is burned. This is much more noticeable on throttle bodies than direct port injection.

N2O creates such massive combustion temperatures, that sometimes you do have to shorten the burn time (back off timing) depending on the amount you introduce into the process. This is because the temperatures reached BTDC are more than the pistons could handle if allowed to increase. Don't confuse burn rate with burn time. Burn time is how long you allow the mixture to combust, while burn rate is the speed at which the mixture combusts. Increasing the burn rate allows you to burn more fuel in the same amount of time. That's all N2O is for, to introduce more oxygen into the process so you can introduce more fuel. The cold charge is the side benefit.