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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here's some interesting information I thought everyone might want to read.

This is mostly for those who like to change their oil very frequently with the mindset that changing it very often is better and makes them feel good about themselves and their vehicle. And a good read for everyone else anyway. Cars and car engines are what are being directly discussed so oil change interval may vary for your bike and the oil you use but the same general rules apply for engines no matter what kind of vehicle you're talking about.

The overall message is to follow the recommended oil change interval for whichever oil you're using. If your oil is meant to be ran for 5000 miles, then change it at 5000.

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

"Title: Extended Oil Drain Intervals - Conservation of Resources Or Reduction of Engine Life (Part Ii)"
After reading that you may never change your oil again at even 10,000 miles!

There are millions of miles of oil analysis that not only prove short duration changes increase wear but also result in a lack of additive activation in the motor. If you own a Jiffy Lube then I would expect you to subscribe to the "3,000 mile Mentality" myth.

Oil additives are activated by heat and pressure. Due to the additives having to hold up over time i.e. longer than 10,000 miles the formulations take a certain period of time to become active in protecting the motor. Draining the oil at lets say 3,000 miles simply means the additives have just become active at the point you are draining your oil! In other words you are increasing wear by about 500% doing 3,000 mile drain intervals!

Oils that carry the extended drain ratings such as 506.01, 507.00 etc mean that the additives are formulated to remain active for periods up to 2 years, 40,000 kms or 640 hours of usage. Oils like Mobil 1 0w40 are formulated to withstand 400F sump temps WITHOUT breaking down and losing viscosity. Furthermore the oils cannot break down due to the PAO makeup of the oil. These oils do not rely on elastomers like the conventional oils do. This means that the oil can fully protect your motor at any temperature without the concern of thermal break-down and thinning out of grade.

If you doubt the 10K oil change intervals perform an oil sample at 1,000 miles. Most cars with a fresh sump of oil will peak out at the 1,000 mile mark. After that the wear metals may increase by only 5-10% over the course of 10,000 miles! Nearly 90% of the engine wear occurs in the first 1,000 miles on an oil change! Increasing oil change frequency increases the duration your engine spends in the activation period of the additives and greatly increases the damage in your motor from failing to follow the guidelines of the manufacturer.

Just looking at iron in a VW motor typical readings are around 20-35 ppm after 15,000 miles of use maximum on a motor that has more than 60,000 miles. The oil filter is not capable of filtering this much metal simply because the wear metals are so small they can't be filtered from the oil. Also because there is so little wear metal you do not get wear as a result of the metal being suspended in the oil.

Dispersants require time to bond to the wear metals and byproducts in your engine oil. As byproducts such as soot (gasoline or diesel make soot just different sizes which discolor the oil) are created additives coat them and prevent them from clumping and becoming larger. Typical soot particles in diesel oil are in the nanometer range in terms of size 10 times smaller than what any bypass filter can even capture which is rated at 2 microns absolute. Your oil filter in your motor is rated at capturing particles in the 7 micron range with only a 75% first pass rating...Bottom line is your car would last forever if you change the oil every 20,000 miles and NEVER replace the oil filter simply because your motor is not making enough metal or by-products to ever get captured! Oils especially those for diesels can handle upwards of 8% soot, that my friend is a LOT of soot! To put that in perspective a typical motor after 25,000 miles without an oil change or filter change will only have 1% soot in the oil. This oil will appear tar black yet the oil still has 80% of its rated levels of protection remaining!

Most oils are limited by time in the sump rather than miles due to sulfur in the fuel. Most gasoline motors can safely go 2 years between changes when using quality oils formulated for extended drains such as Mobil 1 0w40 and Truck and SUV 5w40. These oils along with those sold as VOW 506.01 have very high TBN ratings that neutralize acid formation for upwards of two years (1 year in diesels due to higher sulfur content which causes the acids).

Here's the deal, forget the myths about frequent oil changes and basing your perceptions on how the oil looks. The best advice is use a quality oil and drain it at the specified interval. The worst thing you can do to a modern car is over maintain it, yes this is possible due to the very specific regimen that VW engineers figured out to keep your car running at peak performance with maximum durability."
 

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Interesting, I would do more research though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The part of my post in quotes is direct from SAE itself. I should have mentioned that.
 

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I read the link and your posting, kinda confused. Saying changing the oil too often is bad? Which I would agree with. In my car I run Mobil M1 syn and change it every 6k-8k.

btw there is a website, bobistheoilguy or something, google it. It has nothing but info on oil and tests.
 

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I average every 1500-2K miles. I've been using the same brand, Castrol ACT EVO non-synthetic. Since my bike is a bit more higher performance oriented than my car, I tend keep up with the maintenance. My car I'll usually do every 4K miles and the bulk of my driving is highway. I always change the oil slightly before and slightly after a trackday I've done though. Running at higher rpm's and temps longer. Plus in high humid areas such as Houston, I've heard that in the high heat older oil doesn't work as effictive and can begin to breakdown more prematurely beause it's already so hot. Dunno if that's true, just what I was told by mechanic in the family.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
That article seems a little skeptical.
Are you saying the article is skeptical? Or that you're skeptical because the information is different from what you've heard before.

I average every 1500-2K miles. I've been using the same brand, Castrol ACT EVO non-synthetic. Since my bike is a bit more higher performance oriented than my car, I tend keep up with the maintenance. My car I'll usually do every 4K miles and the bulk of my driving is highway. I always change the oil slightly before and slightly after a trackday I've done though. Running at higher rpm's and temps longer. Plus in high humid areas such as Houston, I've heard that in the high heat older oil doesn't work as effictive and can begin to breakdown more prematurely beause it's already so hot. Dunno if that's true, just what I was told by mechanic in the family.
From looking at that oil, my understanding is that it's made to work with high performance bike engines so you don't necessarily have to change it early because you work your bike hard.

I can't speak for engines that are used on the track though that only see the highest RPMs and WOT for extended periods of times. Unless the oil is getting hotter than it's limit(for whatever oil it is), it shouldn't matter how hard you're beating on it. It won't break down.

If you're not sure, you can send a sample of your oil to Blackstone Labs and they'll tell you everything you need to know about your oil, how it's protecting your engine, and so on. Everything from a breakdown of the metal shavings found in your oil to determine exactly where it's coming from.

Getting an oil analysis is the only way to know for sure.

BTW does your post refer to Synthetics only? I ask because Toyota had a huge problem with oil sludge in thier engines. The culprit? People not changing thier oil. This was only caused by Dino oil though.
The general idea applies to all oils, period. One part is speaking about a 10,000 mile change but if you're using a non-synth that is recommended to be changed at 5000, change it at 5,000.

I'm just trying to get some real info out there since I know alot of people do their oil changes early to make themselves "feel good." Leaving it in there overdue isn't good but changing it too soon isn't good either.
 

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reminds me of Men's Health, one month said item is good for you, next month it's bad for you
 

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first of all, extended oil drain intervals are only a marketing gimmick, they were created by car manufacturers to sell more cars. just like Ducati trying not to scare potential buyers, they say 2007 models and up have 50% less maintenance, if you really look deep into it it's not so. lol

anyway, oil, politics, etc. all those types of threads go nowhere, everyone has their own opinion, interpretation, influence or whatever...

also have to keep in mind, any test is done or manufacturer recommendation (besides the ones that push marketing extended oil intervals...) all are done in IDEAL NORMAL PERFECT conditions. What does that mean? warmer weather, dust conditions, humidity, shelf life, time period used, number of times oil is warmed up/cooled off, all affect the oil change interval.

everyone is free to do what they want regarding oil, if they plan to keep a motor for a long time, changing oil often only helps.


here's a good read

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
first of all, extended oil drain intervals are only a marketing gimmick, they were created by car manufacturers to sell more cars. just like Ducati trying not to scare potential buyers, they say 2007 models and up have 50% less maintenance, if you really look deep into it it's not so. lol

anyway, oil, politics, etc. all those types of threads go nowhere, everyone has their own opinion, interpretation, influence or whatever...

also have to keep in mind, any test is done or manufacturer recommendation (besides the ones that push marketing extended oil intervals...) all are done in IDEAL NORMAL PERFECT conditions. What does that mean? warmer weather, dust conditions, humidity, shelf life, time period used, number of times oil is warmed up/cooled off, all affect the oil change interval.

everyone is free to do what they want regarding oil, if they plan to keep a motor for a long time, changing oil often only helps.


here's a good read

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html


SAE is not a car manufacturer.


Just because everyone has their own opinion about oil and oil changes doesn't mean there isn't real empirical data out there that should just be ignored.

Yes, everyone is free to do what they want with their engine. Keeping a car or bike for a long time is a not a good reason to frequently change the oil before it's needed.
 

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here's one of my cars at 107k miles with 3k oil changes synthetic



now here's same engine in a car with 90k miles with 10k oil changes synthetic (btw mobil 1 0w40 lol)




so which would one preffer? which one would SAE preffer, would they come out and clean that sludge for me? screw them, i go my own way
 

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that 2nd one was obviously ran VERY hot...

ive seen the insides of motors with FEW oil changes. its a thick sludge.
and when draining..it strings out..almost like a licorice rope. but still easily went well over 200k without any major engine work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
here's one of my cars at 107k miles with 3k oil changes synthetic



now here's same engine in a car with 90k miles with 10k oil changes synthetic (btw mobil 1 0w40 lol)




so which would one preffer? which one would SAE preffer, would they come out and clean that sludge for me? screw them, i go my own way
So you have oil analysis tests and data to back up that the oil change interval is responsible for the failure of that engine?

Please post them.
 
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