I was wondering if the commander for the 636 is worth th cash or not, I have heard that they are really only worht it if you race it a lot. But I am planning on getting a full hindle exauhst in the near futur and if I have the cash might get the commander. Or should I just get it mapped and just bypass the commander. Thanx
power commander, worth it or not?
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Most bikes are tuned on the rich side from the factory. Richer is safer for the most part, but it also means less HP. The power commander will allow you to adjust the map to optimum levels for HP.
I doubt you would get a lean condition from just a pipe. Leaner than stock yes, dangerously lean no. A pipe does increase air velocity though (air velocity = HP) The ECU on most fuel injected bikes will adjust themselves for the new pipe so it runs ok, but without the powercommander you are not getting optimum HP. Make sense?
SO in answer to your question, more than likely no you don't NEED a power commander. All it does is help you get the most out from your bike.
I doubt you would get a lean condition from just a pipe. Leaner than stock yes, dangerously lean no. A pipe does increase air velocity though (air velocity = HP) The ECU on most fuel injected bikes will adjust themselves for the new pipe so it runs ok, but without the powercommander you are not getting optimum HP. Make sense?
SO in answer to your question, more than likely no you don't NEED a power commander. All it does is help you get the most out from your bike.
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I would say that a Power Commander is definitely worth getting. It's a small price to pay to have your bike running the way it should.
jay6rninja, who told you that? most bikes run lean from the factory, its better for fuel efficiency and emissions. I have a power commander on my other bike and with the air kit and pipes it made a huge difference! If you dont go power commander keep checking your plugs to make sure you run correct.
According to Techlusion, fuel injected bikes are mapped lean from the factory to meet emissions standards.
As for the popular belief that fuel injected bikes automatically compensate for aftermarket add-ons that effect the volumetric efficiency of a bike... Here's a good link to a PC guide from the www.powercommander.com website. As it states, the ECU can adjust the ENTIRE curve up and down in order to make adjustments for atmospheric and weather conditions, but the problem is it does not ALTER the curve to adjust for changes in (aftermarket) parts like endcans and air filters. This is why Power Commanders are basically a requirement for full aftermarket exhaust systems in order to ensure the bike is getting the correct and optimum mixture throughout the powerband and running properly.
There IS an alternative to using the Power Commander, although it's definitely not as popular an alternative. The Techlusion TFI Box is a cheaper alternative for those on a tight budget, although we haven't really seen glowing reviews from any members at this point. We've already discussed this product, and the popular opinion seems to be to stick to the proven product (the PCIII)...
As for the popular belief that fuel injected bikes automatically compensate for aftermarket add-ons that effect the volumetric efficiency of a bike... Here's a good link to a PC guide from the www.powercommander.com website. As it states, the ECU can adjust the ENTIRE curve up and down in order to make adjustments for atmospheric and weather conditions, but the problem is it does not ALTER the curve to adjust for changes in (aftermarket) parts like endcans and air filters. This is why Power Commanders are basically a requirement for full aftermarket exhaust systems in order to ensure the bike is getting the correct and optimum mixture throughout the powerband and running properly.
There IS an alternative to using the Power Commander, although it's definitely not as popular an alternative. The Techlusion TFI Box is a cheaper alternative for those on a tight budget, although we haven't really seen glowing reviews from any members at this point. We've already discussed this product, and the popular opinion seems to be to stick to the proven product (the PCIII)...
All pipes are designed to work well on factory bikes without fuel injection remapping. You should have no fear of detonation from an overly lean condition.
Will you gain 2-3hp from the install of a PCIII? Yes. So with our sport averaging $100 a hp...you will pay for your gains.
I put a PC on my RC51 because it was showing huge gains in the midrange. I didn't put one on the 929 or R1 I owned(slip-ons). With a full exhaust I'd go ahead & put it on.
Will you gain 2-3hp from the install of a PCIII? Yes. So with our sport averaging $100 a hp...you will pay for your gains.
I put a PC on my RC51 because it was showing huge gains in the midrange. I didn't put one on the 929 or R1 I owned(slip-ons). With a full exhaust I'd go ahead & put it on.
Ok, this is what I am gathering from this thread. Please confirm or refute. If you add a slip-on onto an 03, you do not necessarily need to get a PCIII, whereas if you get a full system, although you don't need a PCIII, it is greatly beneficial.
Slip-on: PCIII not really worth the money. Your bike will run as good if not better than stock.
Full system: Bike will run ok, maybe not as good as stock. PCIII will make it a helluva lot better.
Correct?
Slip-on: PCIII not really worth the money. Your bike will run as good if not better than stock.
Full system: Bike will run ok, maybe not as good as stock. PCIII will make it a helluva lot better.
Correct?
You're generalizing too much.
All bikes will see some gains from a properly set up PCIII. Whether it's enough to offset the cost, only you can decide. Full exhausts more dramatically affect the fuel-air mixture than slip-ons with similar cans. Slip ons generally aren't going to throw the bike into a tailspin in terms of mix, but you'll still gain from adding a PCIII no question. I wouldn't install a full system without one, and most manufacturers will tell you that up front. The bike will not blow up without one (at least in the short term), but likely won't run smoothly from 0 to 15k without one.
All bikes will see some gains from a properly set up PCIII. Whether it's enough to offset the cost, only you can decide. Full exhausts more dramatically affect the fuel-air mixture than slip-ons with similar cans. Slip ons generally aren't going to throw the bike into a tailspin in terms of mix, but you'll still gain from adding a PCIII no question. I wouldn't install a full system without one, and most manufacturers will tell you that up front. The bike will not blow up without one (at least in the short term), but likely won't run smoothly from 0 to 15k without one.
I guess I can rephrase, although it may still be generalizing. I bought a slip-on basically just for looks and sound. I feel the 636 has plenty of power for me personally, seeing as it is my first bike. I guess being 'worth it' is different for each person. I understand that having a full system would definitely warrant a PCIII. I guess to be more specific, are there any disadvantages to having a slip-on with no PCIII (ie. air-fuel is changed enough to warrant a PCIII, or bike will not run as smoothly as stock without PCIII)?
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It would depend on what slip-on you choose as well. Some will affect the bike differently. Disadvantage of having a slip-on with no PC- air/fuel mixture won't be optimal. But, it isn't optimal even with the stock pipe from the factory. It is just closer to that point with the stock exhaust. If you are having a hard time deciding whether or not it is worth the cash to buy a PC, then I would advise you to just wait until you have your slip-on installed and see if there are any signs that would warrant your bike needing one (like backfiring or shooting a blue flame from your end pipe).
Ah I see. I forgot that the PCIII can even help out a stock pipe. I do get the backfiring, but haven't noticed any flames (people I ride with haven't). Maybe a PCIII could be on the list of my to do's. With that in mind though, I'm thinking maybe I should have gone with a full Hindle system rather than a slip-on. I guess I could just buy the headers later though. Thanks all for the clarifications.
samps,
The job of the Power Commander is not to add peak power (that is the job of the can), although it will if the air to fuel ratio is not optimal at full throttle. The job of the Power Commander is to give better driveability, and it will do that even with the stock can.
Check out this bit from the article "Electrickery" in the March 2001 issue of Performance Bikes:
Injection ... delivers a predetermined amount of fuel, according to a 3D map programmed into the CPU.
The map (both fuelling and ignition) supplied with your bike will be a compromise, designed to work across production tolerances, in tune with noise restrictions, emissions and with fuel consumption borne in mind. In most cases, it has to be said, this works bloody well on your out-of-the-showroom superbike.
There may, though, be the well-documented flatspot where the noise regs are measured (4-5000-ish rpm). And although the air/fuel ratio may be very close to the sweet spot, it hasn't been exactly matched to the needs of your individual engine.
Add an aftermarket filter, exhaust system, end-can, or other tuning mods and A/F ratios will be further astray. Contrary to misinformed whisperings, most injected bikes do not self adjust to tuning mods. If you want your injection's fuelling matched exactly to your bike, then this can be achieved using a Power Commander, a load-control dyno and the appropriate software.
If you do not use a custom-mapped Power Commander with the new can, the power will not be as smooth, user-friendly, or fuel-economic as it can be. For best results, use a custom-mapped Power Commander, no matter the exhaust. The engine runs best with the fuel map that meets its individual needs.
The job of the Power Commander is not to add peak power (that is the job of the can), although it will if the air to fuel ratio is not optimal at full throttle. The job of the Power Commander is to give better driveability, and it will do that even with the stock can.
Check out this bit from the article "Electrickery" in the March 2001 issue of Performance Bikes:
Injection ... delivers a predetermined amount of fuel, according to a 3D map programmed into the CPU.
The map (both fuelling and ignition) supplied with your bike will be a compromise, designed to work across production tolerances, in tune with noise restrictions, emissions and with fuel consumption borne in mind. In most cases, it has to be said, this works bloody well on your out-of-the-showroom superbike.
There may, though, be the well-documented flatspot where the noise regs are measured (4-5000-ish rpm). And although the air/fuel ratio may be very close to the sweet spot, it hasn't been exactly matched to the needs of your individual engine.
Add an aftermarket filter, exhaust system, end-can, or other tuning mods and A/F ratios will be further astray. Contrary to misinformed whisperings, most injected bikes do not self adjust to tuning mods. If you want your injection's fuelling matched exactly to your bike, then this can be achieved using a Power Commander, a load-control dyno and the appropriate software.
If you do not use a custom-mapped Power Commander with the new can, the power will not be as smooth, user-friendly, or fuel-economic as it can be. For best results, use a custom-mapped Power Commander, no matter the exhaust. The engine runs best with the fuel map that meets its individual needs.
I'm beginning to see the beauty of a PCIII. I think it will be on my list of to do mods. This kinda sucks now though, cause I could have picked up a full ti Hindle system and a PCIII for a good price from someone locally, but chose not to due to $$$ reasons, that's why I just got my slip-on. Damn.
Samps, don't feel it's a must-do right away. You won't be harming anything with your slip on. As Rob's post mentions, like we have been (good find by the way Rob), you will get gains from the PCIII to make the most of your aftermarket goodies. It won't be earth-shattering.
Here's a solution - install the pipe. Ride the bike. If there's definite flat spots or faulty response, you'll wanna move quicker on the PCIII. If it's relatively smooth throughout the powerband, you'll be fine for a while until you can afford to invest in the PCIII.
Here's a solution - install the pipe. Ride the bike. If there's definite flat spots or faulty response, you'll wanna move quicker on the PCIII. If it's relatively smooth throughout the powerband, you'll be fine for a while until you can afford to invest in the PCIII.
For my bike I have a two bro's slip on...the bike was surging at idle and backfiring after hard acceleration...the shop adjusted the FI system which helped some...after about 3mos of riding I was back to the same point...surging and backfiring...at that point they said put the PC III in...that was when they gave me "running lean" story...It seems like what I have read here it was a good decision...but expensive...
Well the whole thing about it is, when I was offered a slightly used full ti Hindle system and the PCIII, I didn't get it cause of the $$$. I could've afforded it, but didn't feel the need for the power. I've had my slip-on for a couple of weeks now. Don't notice any flat spots or surging, although it does backfire (I kinda like that). I'll just leave it for now, maybe I'll get one later. There are other mods higher on my to do list.
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Well heck, if you don't notice any power inefficiencies and like the backfiring, then you have no reason to get one.
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