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"had your witch's brew tested"

I test it every day I use it.

You are free to use the exact same oil with no mixing for the next 60 years- even though that is impossible because the oil company will keep improving their formula every few months.
 
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For more on this complex oil subject, a thread about Rotella oils and the JASO MA rating from 2012 is below.

I think a motorcycle dealer would be a dick for denying a warranty claim because you used Rotella oil, but I did use the Honda oil during the one year warranty for my new Honda motorcycle, just to be safe.

I have earthquake insurance for our house, but I take the "huge" risk according to some by mixing 2 well known oils from major companies after the warranty. They are my bikes- if an engine blows up, it is my problem to fix or replace it.
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Clarification on Rotella JASO-MA "Certification" | Motorcycles and Motorcycle Lubrication | Bob Is The Oil Guy
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Motul 7100 for a good synthetic. Motul 300V would probably net the most HP but it is meant for racing, not necessarily a regular use oil. I just use Rotella 15W-40.


That being said, you aren't going to gain much HP for a 650. I have seen an R1 gain 2HP but there is some margin of error there. It's unlikely that you would notice anything other than the usual butt dyno illusion of improvement.
Yep, the Rotella Full synthetic 15w40 is very good, cheap too. the 15w is all year too.
 

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In the example linked below (250 Ninja) and similar for other motorcycles, the owners manual gives an acceptable range for oil weights, from testing by the engineers during engine design.

15w-40 engine oil is within this range, even though it is not specifically listed (15w-40 is a typical weight for diesel engine oil).

Many owners manuals and factory service manuals also have a temperature vs oil weight chart, with the 20 in 20w-50 oil often good down to 0 degrees F and the 10 in 10w-40 often good down to -20 degrees F.


You would be considered quite crazy to ride in these low temperatures, except for motorcycle ice racing or for snowmobiles:
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Kawasaki ZX250-C6 General Information Manual (Page 5 of 24)
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My greatest concern when it comes to motor oil is that I keep hearing and reading contradicting opinions.


Actually it's like hearing doctors reports, one day chicken is anti-cancer, the other gives you cancer so don't eat it. So one day semi synthetic oil has better film retention properties, the other it's better to use fully synthetic for the same reason :mad:


The only concrete things about oil changes by the factory is oil viscosity, types and temperature ranges AND the often forgotten recommendation that oil change intervals can vary accordingly.


For instance, 1000 miles in city traffic mean a lot more engine operation hours in comparison to 1000 highway miles and that's why I am changing my oil more often than the 12.000 km suggestion.


I am not here to judge anyone but if there is indeed concrete, independent test proven evidence that synthetic oil is better for everyday or road sport riding I would like to see it not because I am questioning it but because I don't know what to believe anymore :laugh:
 

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There is too much information.

I go by shifting smoothness and clutch feel.

For my automatic transmission cars, there is no engine oil for shifting and no engine oil in a clutch, and Valvoline MaxLife seems like a good medium priced oil that is good for the oil seals- based on many hours of reading (often conflicting info.) at the Bob is the Oil Guy forum.

You can be like the more traditional in Kentucky- only traditional Pennzoil and Fram oil filters for their truck, and Harley brand oil for their Harley. A few that I have rode with have switched to Valvoline in their Harley transmissions- it shifts smoother for them, and the company headquarters is in Lexington, Kentucky.
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There is too much information.

I go by shifting smoothness and clutch feel.

For my automatic transmission cars, there is no engine oil for shifting and no engine oil in a clutch, and Valvoline MaxLife seems like a good medium priced oil that is good for the oil seals- based on many hours of reading (often conflicting info.) at the Bob is the Oil Guy forum.

You can be like the more traditional in Kentucky- only traditional Pennzoil and Fram oil filters for their truck, and Harley brand oil for their Harley. A few that I have rode with have switched to Valvoline in their Harley transmissions- it shifts smoother for them, and the company headquarters is in Lexington, Kentucky.
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I ended up questioning myself even about shifting smoothness and clutch feel at one point :Hmmmm:


What I mean is that if I put grease or gear oil in, than the shifting will be amazing but the engine will be destroyed!


I don't know if the whole matter is complicated or if we make it too complicated for ourselves...


And there are other questions too, if certain oils give lower operating temps and more hp why motorcycle companies don't develop their new engines in cooperation with those oil companies? I am sure that engineers would murder for much smaller gains!
 

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And there are other questions too, if certain oils give lower operating temps and more hp why motorcycle companies don't develop their new engines in cooperation with those oil companies? I am sure that engineers would murder for much smaller gains!

It's a tradeoff. Oil like Motul 300V may result in more power but it may not be as protective for the long haul as the Rotella. Like the 650, it's not really good at any one thing and is just an all around OK bike. The same can probably be said for any general JASO rated 10W40. The only reason you would pick one over another is price, preference or purpose. They will all do the job though.
 

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It's a tradeoff. Oil like Motul 300V may result in more power but it may not be as protective for the long haul as the Rotella. Like the 650, it's not really good at any one thing and is just an all around OK bike. The same can probably be said for any general JASO rated 10W40. The only reason you would pick one over another is price, preference or purpose. They will all do the job though.

Personally I put long term protection over hp gain when it comes to oil but again, we end up in the same vicious cycle.


For instance, I 've read that synth oils offer better long term protection and can be left unchanged for more time and exactly the same thing about semi syths too :mad:


Unfortunately, no matter which oil property we discuss there is too much conflicting and not formally supported information.
 

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This year I ran Castrol GTX 10W-40 reg. motorcycle oil in my 2007 650R. Next year I was thinking of using Royal Purple because they claim from a 2-4% power increase. Then I thought about reg.
Kawasaki 10W-40 motorcycle oil if I stick with reg. oil?

Thank you for your comments and answers.
Even if for the sake of argument the claim is true, you're going to have a very, very hard time verifying the accuracy under real world conditions. 2-4% is almost certainly going to be within the margin of error.

I don't believe it really matters whether you're driving on streets or on a track.

Now, if you're the type that's going to be benchmarking the oil with machinery, you might figure out if it's true or not. But, even if true, it's highly unlikely that you'll ever know if it's actually helping you out when you're riding.

Realistically, your belief that it works or doesn't is likely going to swamp any actual changes in performance in this area.

For what it's worth, I think the protection is a much bigger deal. The last thing you want is for the engine to seize up or to put undo wear and tear on the engine. I'd be much more likely to buy an oil that started protecting the engine more quickly than the competition rather than one that claimed to affect performance. But, that's just me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Sorry this is a bit off topic, but I have a 2012 Toyota Corolla that takes
0W-20 synthetic oil. This is the first vehicle that I've had that takes
synthetic oil. This engine runs way, way smoother than any other
engine I've ever had. If I could find a synthetic that makes my 650R
run as smooth as my Corolla, I'd use it.
 

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Sorry this is a bit off topic, but I have a 2012 Toyota Corolla that takes
0W-20 synthetic oil. This is the first vehicle that I've had that takes
synthetic oil. This engine runs way, way smoother than any other
engine I've ever had. If I could find a synthetic that makes my 650R
run as smooth as my Corolla, I'd use it.

Sitting one meter away from an inline four, or any car engine, with a bulkhead covered with sound proofing material in between is one thing, sitting atop of a parallel twin screwed on a metal frame a few cm away from you quite another.


Anyway, a parallel twin will never be as smooth as an I4 so it would be better for you to simply find an oil, synthetic or not, that makes your 650R run smoother than usual.


And with so much contradicting and officially unsupported information, right or wrong, it would be better to try different oil brands, viscosities and types, always according to factory specification, and decide for yourself which is the best.
 

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From a recent Bob is the Oil Guy thread:


“At temperatures freezing and above, there will be absolutely no difference in time between 0W, 5W, 10W, and 15W filling the galleries and hitting full oil pressure.


The wear is in the mid warm-up range, not startup, when the initial protection provided by viscosity is lost, and the oil moves into additive control of wear.


The middle range is the range to get through as quickly as you can - don't idle an engine to warm it, use it. [With carbs, the engine will stall if you take off when it is not warm enough, even with the choke still part way on.]


When you do an oil change (with filter), you only change around 85% of the oil because about 15% is stuck in the engine.”


From:
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10w-30 vs 5w-40 question | Heavy Duty Engine Oil (HDEO) - Diesel/Gas Pickups/Trucks/Vans | Bob Is The Oil Guy
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The middle range is the range to get through as quickly as you can - don't idle an engine to warm it, use it.

When you do an oil change (with filter), you only change around 85% of the oil because about 15% is stuck in the engine”
I agree with both statements, the idling / auto choke revving warm up was deemed unnecessary after extensive testing before and during the early catalytic converter era (it was also causing damage to the catalyst).

I also believe that it is near impossible to get rid of the old oil simply by let it drain which is a good thing as oil should stick in order to protect better. I expected a percentage around 5% though.
 

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After many years of using and recommending the BelRay 10W – 40 Synthetic Ester Blend oil, last summer I decided to try again a fully synthetic oil.

My choice was the Amsoil Metric 10W - 40 variety with suspiciously many good reviews and online recommendations.

So after a quick oil filter and oil change, I noticed an immediate drop in Kawi noise levels! I wish I had a dB meter to verify that but my mechanic also noticed it and so I set off to test the cooler operation claims.

I followed my everyday route knowing that the radiator fan starts working at a specific point and time. When I reached that point, nothing happened. I was quite impressed and decided to stop at the side of the road with the engine running and it took two more minutes for the fan to start doing its job! Same route, same ambient temperature, same engine load, cooler engine!

During low speed and city riding, I couldn’t feel much difference in comparison to the previous oil, the gearbox felt the same, positive with the occasional thump, and the running, in general, was as good as with the BelRay oil.

When the new oil got up to temperature though, and the revs began to rise, it was a different story. On the highway, with a steady 90mph, the bike felt smoother and the running effortless, a very nice running feeling markedly better than before. I arrived at my summer house about 90kms away with a big smile on my face!

Sport riding was also very much improved as the engine seemed smoother and way more eager to be revved. I usually don’t enjoy revving my engine to the sky but with this oil I caught myself flirting with the upper rev limit just for the hell of it! With the oil at optimum temperature, the gearbox was also transformed, making clutchless up shifting a joy as the next ratio would click in place with the slightest of touches on the gear lever! During October’s lockdown I managed to escape again and enjoyed more than a thousand miles of empty, country roads, and the oil’s performance was identically good no matter the ambient temperature.

During my recent long road trip to Italy and Malta, the oil also performed excellently, the same effortless running and peace of mind even during long highway stints and a lot of climbing up and down the Sicilian mountains with the bike fully loaded. Both engine and gearbox still in top form after almost 3500 km and eight days on the road.

And last but not least, ZERO clutch slipping – ZERO leaks or oil burning (as per usual)! I had a pretty bad experience with a fully synthetic Castrol oil a few years ago and vowed not to use one ever again, but thankfully my curiosity got the better of me :)

Where I live this oil is about two Euros more expensive per liter in comparison to the BelRay and I also needed to buy three bottles of the stuff as the US quarts do not exactly correspond to liters and I had to add a few more ml to meet the exact 1.9-liter amount for the oil change. I bought two more bottles back in February and the already opened one will serve as the “Joker”.

In a nutshell, I am pretty impressed by the Amsoil 10W – 40 fully synthetic oil as it performed extremely well against the excellent, previous BelRay 10W – 40 Synthetic Ester Blend and it fully justified its higher price with tangible improvements, stability and longevity:

Quieter, smoother and cooler engine operation

Effortless engine operation under high load

Livelier throttle response and high-speed revving

Quick shifter feeling gearbox with the oil warmed up

P.S. As always, impressions can be subjective so naturally don’t expect an oil change to suddenly turn your engine into a 1.6 liter straight-six.

The bottom line is that I saw a great improvement in comparison to a very high-quality oil so I bet that the difference in comparison to a cheap, run-of-the-mill oil will be massive.
 

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After many years of using and recommending the BelRay 10W – 40 Synthetic Ester Blend oil, last summer I decided to try again a fully synthetic oil.

My choice was the Amsoil Metric 10W - 40 variety with suspiciously many good reviews and online recommendations.

So after a quick oil filter and oil change, I noticed an immediate drop in Kawi noise levels! I wish I had a dB meter to verify that but my mechanic also noticed it and so I set off to test the cooler operation claims.

I followed my everyday route knowing that the radiator fan starts working at a specific point and time. When I reached that point, nothing happened. I was quite impressed and decided to stop at the side of the road with the engine running and it took two more minutes for the fan to start doing its job! Same route, same ambient temperature, same engine load, cooler engine!

During low speed and city riding, I couldn’t feel much difference in comparison to the previous oil, the gearbox felt the same, positive with the occasional thump, and the running, in general, was as good as with the BelRay oil.

When the new oil got up to temperature though, and the revs began to rise, it was a different story. On the highway, with a steady 90mph, the bike felt smoother and the running effortless, a very nice running feeling markedly better than before. I arrived at my summer house about 90kms away with a big smile on my face!

Sport riding was also very much improved as the engine seemed smoother and way more eager to be revved. I usually don’t enjoy revving my engine to the sky but with this oil I caught myself flirting with the upper rev limit just for the hell of it! With the oil at optimum temperature, the gearbox was also transformed, making clutchless up shifting a joy as the next ratio would click in place with the slightest of touches on the gear lever! During October’s lockdown I managed to escape again and enjoyed more than a thousand miles of empty, country roads, and the oil’s performance was identically good no matter the ambient temperature.

During my recent long road trip to Italy and Malta, the oil also performed excellently, the same effortless running and peace of mind even during long highway stints and a lot of climbing up and down the Sicilian mountains with the bike fully loaded. Both engine and gearbox still in top form after almost 3500 km and eight days on the road.

And last but not least, ZERO clutch slipping – ZERO leaks or oil burning (as per usual)! I had a pretty bad experience with a fully synthetic Castrol oil a few years ago and vowed not to use one ever again, but thankfully my curiosity got the better of me :)

Where I live this oil is about two Euros more expensive per liter in comparison to the BelRay and I also needed to buy three bottles of the stuff as the US quarts do not exactly correspond to liters and I had to add a few more ml to meet the exact 1.9-liter amount for the oil change. I bought two more bottles back in February and the already opened one will serve as the “Joker”.

In a nutshell, I am pretty impressed by the Amsoil 10W – 40 fully synthetic oil as it performed extremely well against the excellent, previous BelRay 10W – 40 Synthetic Ester Blend and it fully justified its higher price with tangible improvements, stability and longevity:

Quieter, smoother and cooler engine operation

Effortless engine operation under high load

Livelier throttle response and high-speed revving

Quick shifter feeling gearbox with the oil warmed up

P.S. As always, impressions can be subjective so naturally don’t expect an oil change to suddenly turn your engine into a 1.6 liter straight-six.

The bottom line is that I saw a great improvement in comparison to a very high-quality oil so I bet that the difference in comparison to a cheap, run-of-the-mill oil will be massive.
Sounds like what I need for the XR lol, I haven't made up my mind on what oil to run in it, for the time being I put Motul 7100 5W40, but apparently BMW are really fussy about what they want in it as on the inside parts have some special coatings that don't jive with some oils, especially anything OTHER THAN Fully synth and JASO MA2 rated. Most people say 7100 is decent for them but the engine is a little loud for my liking, apparently it's normal, but I'll take any noise reduction. I don't mind spending on oil cos spending 50 instead of 40 quid on a 4L can is irrelevant when in the 4-5000 miles the oil is in use for I spend £600 on fuel. Hell, better oil might even improve my gas mileage... As for the ER6F I've by accident or by choice pretty much had everything in it. Repsol full synth 10W40, Castrol Power 1 10W40, these were rather bad, engine performed okay, but they had very sharp performance drop off near end of life, and life was also short (4-5k miles and they were cooked). Then I had Pretty much all grades of Motul, not realising their grades correspond to performance, I had 5100 10W40 x 2 they are average in all aspects with decent life, ran it to 6.5k once and it was still reasonably clean, 5000 10W40, straight rubbish, feels gunky very gunky on shifts and engine was lazy, last a long time though. skipped 7100, but did 300V 10W40, that was fantastic, very good shift feeling, engine noticeably peppier, but not sure about 300V as a long term user as it's apparently not great in the Winter, and drops of extremely sharply when end of life. That said, I've had it in the bike for a long time (4000 miles) and no issues to speak of yet. Apparently the 7100 is a compromise of the 300V's slick performance, but also a very graduated drop off in oil performance, and decent winter performance. I've not really tried many other brands but I wanna give Shell Advance 4T Ultra a try as people the recommended oil for the XR is BMW's own Advantec Ultimate, which is made in the same place and the same way by Shell and the Advance 4T Ultra is the closest thing to it, whilst being affordable (Advantec is 16 quid for 1L bottle :eek::eek::eek:, can't get it bigger) And apparently it really is very good for the XR.
 

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Sounds like what I need for the XR lol, I haven't made up my mind on what oil to run in it, for the time being I put Motul 7100 5W40, but apparently BMW are really fussy about what they want in it as on the inside parts have some special coatings that don't jive with some oils, especially anything OTHER THAN Fully synth and JASO MA2 rated. Most people say 7100 is decent for them but the engine is a little loud for my liking, apparently it's normal, but I'll take any noise reduction. I don't mind spending on oil cos spending 50 instead of 40 quid on a 4L can is irrelevant when in the 4-5000 miles the oil is in use for I spend £600 on fuel. Hell, better oil might even improve my gas mileage... As for the ER6F I've by accident or by choice pretty much had everything in it. Repsol full synth 10W40, Castrol Power 1 10W40, these were rather bad, engine performed okay, but they had very sharp performance drop off near end of life, and life was also short (4-5k miles and they were cooked). Then I had Pretty much all grades of Motul, not realising their grades correspond to performance, I had 5100 10W40 x 2 they are average in all aspects with decent life, ran it to 6.5k once and it was still reasonably clean, 5000 10W40, straight rubbish, feels gunky very gunky on shifts and engine was lazy, last a long time though. skipped 7100, but did 300V 10W40, that was fantastic, very good shift feeling, engine noticeably peppier, but not sure about 300V as a long term user as it's apparently not great in the Winter, and drops of extremely sharply when end of life. That said, I've had it in the bike for a long time (4000 miles) and no issues to speak of yet. Apparently the 7100 is a compromise of the 300V's slick performance, but also a very graduated drop off in oil performance, and decent winter performance. I've not really tried many other brands but I wanna give Shell Advance 4T Ultra a try as people the recommended oil for the XR is BMW's own Advantec Ultimate, which is made in the same place and the same way by Shell and the Advance 4T Ultra is the closest thing to it, whilst being affordable (Advantec is 16 quid for 1L bottle :eek::eek::eek:, can't get it bigger) And apparently it really is very good for the XR.
The Metric is JASO MA/MA2 rated and 100% synthetic but it only comes in quart bottles where I live. There is also a gallon jug version so maybe a thorough internet search will save you some money should you choose to use it. I definitely recommend it, if it is ok with BMW's mandates of course! I didn't refer to any possible fuel consumption gains as I later installed a DNA aftermarket air filter and couldn't form an honest opinion and also I didn't really care because the Er is so economical anyway. I bet that the bigger the engine the more noticeable the fuel consumption gains though, and a top-notch oil could definitely make a difference in the longterm.

I am inclined to believe that Castrol circulated a bad batch sometime in the past because I keep reading the same bad impressions for years. I've heard mixed impressions about the 300V, it was kind of a fad here for a long time, and I am glad to read your positive comments. Maybe some people expected miracles, as is often the case with such products. I would also be delighted to read impressions about Shell and Repsol lubricants as in Greece these brands are not popular at all and often overlooked.
 

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The Metric is JASO MA/MA2 rated and 100% synthetic but it only comes in quart bottles where I live. There is also a gallon jug version so maybe a thorough internet search will save you some money should you choose to use it. I definitely recommend it, if it is ok with BMW's mandates of course! I didn't refer to any possible fuel consumption gains as I later installed a DNA aftermarket air filter and couldn't form an honest opinion and also I didn't really care because the Er is so economical anyway. I bet that the bigger the engine the more noticeable the fuel consumption gains though, and a top-notch oil could definitely make a difference in the longterm.

I am inclined to believe that Castrol circulated a bad batch sometime in the past because I keep reading the same bad impressions for years. I've heard mixed impressions about the 300V, it was kind of a fad here for a long time, and I am glad to read your positive comments. Maybe some people expected miracles, as is often the case with such products. I would also be delighted to read impressions about Shell and Repsol lubricants as in Greece these brands are not popular at all and often overlooked.
The Repsol Racing was very similar to the Castrol Power 1 I tried at the time (3 years ago or so) I used to run the Repsol in my R125, so it didn't really matter, it was just really cheap and had fancy colours on it, back then I didn't really know much about oils. That said the Repsol always seemed really thin compared to equivalent grade oils from Motul, motuls are very thick generally, and the repsol would regularly needed a small top up in my 125. In the ER6 it only started going near the end of life, but to the degree, where up to 4k miles, it was perfectly on the dot every time, after 4k mile you'd need to put almost 300ml every 500 miles. Castrol did the same, but none of the motuls i've had, except the very low grade 5000 one, but i'm willing to give that the slip because it's semi-synthetic and was used during the winter and it was still lesser degree. The worst example of the Repsol Rider 20W50 though is in my 2003 XT600E, big thumping single cyl, probably nice and loose, with 40k miles on it, that thing was CHUGGING the repsol. Blue smoke on startup, and good thing it has oil stored in the frame because, damn it needed it lol. Repsol was going at like half a liter/ 500 miles from the very start. The repsol only stayed in for about 1500 miles before I ran out of leftovers from the bottles and decided to F it, and went for Motul 7100 20W50. No smoking since then and doesn't drink oil anywhere near as much.

About the Shell, as I said they make BMW's recommended oil and their own version is very close, to it. I've always thought of Shell in the back of my mind as a cheap oil company, kind of like Tesco own brand oils or stuff like that when in reality I know they aren't, it's just a perception thing, so i've been reluctant to try them yet, but I also only hear praise for the Advance Ultra and the Rotella in the car industry. In all fairness I used their Advance 2T in my old RG80 2 stroke but that thing is probably even less representative than the XT600 lol

As for fuel economy, I've not noticed any changes in fuel economy on my ER but i think I also have bigger factors affecting it already. In comparison with the XR the average consumption is about the same, on the ER6: I used to get 45mpg (6.2L/100km) as I used to do 150 miles to the tank and then put in 14.8-15L at the pump. The best I got out of a single tank was 189 miles and only 14.5 went in so that was 59mpg or 4.8L/100km, the absolute worst was 118 miles for 14L, so 38mpg, 7.3L/100km.

The XR on the other hand is a lot more sensitive the type of riding you do, but overall has the same averages and consumptions, I haven't really bothered calculating MPG for it because it has an onboard fuel economy calculator and it's pretty much perfectly accurate, the worst I've seen was 37mpg (7.6L/100km), the best I've seen was 53mpg (5.3L/100km), average over 5000 miles according to the Navi was 44.4mpg (6.4L/100km) So I don't know if my ER was pretty bad, or my XR is amazing lol. From what I hear people struggle to get their R1s, MT10s, ZX10Rs, CB1000Rs above 35mpg so this seems extremely good to me. On the other hand ER riders all report around 55mpg and 160-170 miles out of a tank. I think back when I joined this forum I even made a post about my fuel economy lol.
So about the same.
 
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