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KTRIC revisited

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53K views 80 replies 12 participants last post by  nevada  
#1 · (Edited)
KTRIC revisited *Updated First Post*

I was going through some old threads here a while back and came across a discussion about disconnecting the KTRIC TPS system possibly having an effect on performance. Doign some digging around the net i found some interesting stuff a guy did a few years ago mapping the ignition curves of the *ECU* on a ZRX1100. Yes i know its not exactely the same, but the K-TRIC system appears to work in the same way on all of Kawi's bikes.

Thanks to Sean Stasiak for all this information and to Jake for bringing the idea to my attention. I tried to send Sean an email to see if he had any other relevent information, but it was returned as it appears the email in the .pdf is no longer valid.


This first image shows a sample of the 3D timing map the ECU uses.

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The second image shows the operation of the TPS unit. Basically more throttle = more voltage to the ECU which translates into more timing advance.
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The third is a scan showing the text of the manual describing the K-TRIC operation and its default protection.
Image



Now heres where things get interesting.

From what i can gather the ECU input for the TPS operates in a range of 0-5v. The J model service manual states that a properly adjusted TPS shows .95v - 4.15v (lowest idle and highest WOT reading respectively). The ZRX1100 manual states .9v - 4.26v while not exactly the same, is pretty close. More on what this has to do with anything in a minute.

Here is a .pdf showing the ZRX1100 default ignition map with the TPS unplugged.

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http://gstasiak.home.bresnan.net/DefaultAdvMap.pdf


As you can see the timing map tops out with around 37 or so degrees of advance.

Now here is the high res mapping of how the ECU interprets the readings from the TPS. (You'll need Excel to open and view the spreadsheet)

Image


http://gstasiak.home.bresnan.net/Hi-Res TPS Mapping.zip

Looking at the spreadsheet you can see that Sean's TPS topped out at a voltage reading of 4.13v resulting in a maximum advance of 35.52 degrees. Now this may not seem signifigant, thats only a 1.48 degree difference in advance. However what this implies is that even with a properly adjusted TPS the ECU will never reach full advance even at WOT, not to mention how this could affect the TPS adjusted timing curve. Unplugging the TPS defaults the ECU to the "safe" timing map and also results in full advance. Now what this means on a ZX6R, no one really knows. Without a timing map of our specific bike and how the TPS signal is interpreted by the ECU/Ignitor we may never know.


Again this is all just speculation without empirical data to back it up, take it for what its worth, but it does seem to fit in with Jake's account of the Kawasaki Canada race techs telling a racer to uplug his TPS for best performance.

I was bored today so i thought i would try this out. I unplugged the connector from the TPS, fired the bike up and took a ride for a few miles to get the engine up to temp. I got to my favorite full throttle straightaway and let her rip. Rolling on the throttle, everything seemed normal until about 3/4 throttle or 9.5k (wasn't really watching the tach); the damn front end came off the ground. :eek:

Now, i've owned this bike for 7 years and i know the feeling of the front end getting light under accel in first, once I installed my jet kit, the front got even lighter. This was not that feeling, this was full on power wheelie. I about shit my pants.

I bet the tire got about a foot and a half off the ground before i panicked and shut her down. It came up FAST. Rode a ways down the road and turned around and tried again to make sure it wasn't some fluke. Same result. Still to chicken to try and ride it out but after another 3 times or so i got the hell out of dodge in case someone was around and decided to call the po. The whole ride home i was grinning from ear to ear and laughing like a maniac.



*notes*
I edited this first post to keep all the relevent information at the beginning of the thread since things seemed to degenerate into useless name calling.
 
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#2 ·
I always wondered why you guys with ZZRs and G/Js and whatnot couldn't power wheelie easily/accidentally
my pre-ktric F model will do that all day!
 
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#7 ·
Actually it was your post that made me deciede to try the thing in the first place. I think it was dated 2006 ?

I was gonna give you credit for the idea but i forgot to mention it. lol ... sorry.



This works. PERIOD. I have never had the front end come up so fast other than when i am trying to pull a wheelie. Now i have to figure out how to waterproof the plugs since they are no longer connected. any ideas ?
 
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#5 ·
So were Tough Guy and ****** fucking with me when they said this:

Tough-Guy said:
The effects of removing the TPS are:

1) The red OIL light will illuminate and stay on. (It is an indicator there a malfunction like an FI light)

2) You bike is going to run like freeze-dried dog ass and probably won't pass emissions.


Bottom line - Don't fuck with K-TRIC, it's watching you and knows all.
Click to expand...
whitehendrix said:
:Laughing rolling::Laughing rolling::Laughing rolling::Laughing rolling:


indeed








(note: don't EVER play with ANY TPS on ANYTHING unless you're initializing it and know what you're doing.)
Click to expand...
So confused >.<
 
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#8 ·
if your never going to use it again just fill the ends with silicone let it dry

other wise pack it with axle grease cut a little square out of a black garbage bag and zip tie it on ... look like shit but you dont see it anyways....

just my 2 thoughts

you could also cut the wires about 2inchs from the plugs and tape off all the ends and leave the plug conected and if you ever wanna hook it back up just splice it back together
 
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#10 ·
This is hands down, the third most retarded thing I have read on this site, succeeded only by "The Kleen air mod" and "The speakers on a bike" thread.

K-TRIC is NOT launch control by any stretch of the imagination, nor was it holding out on power. G/H/J models will all power wheel effortlessly. Don't think for one second that you found some mystic unicorn, and put the bike into some sort of race mode and gained magical horse powerz.

Wikipedia:

Kawasaki Throttle Responsive Ignition Control (K-TRIC) uses a sensor to alter ignition timing according to throttle position and engine speed for better throttle response and more power

If I was wrong about the oil light coming on, so be it. I know the system responds to a malfunction by oil light indication, but it may be if the ignitor itself has a problem. IDK it's been a while since I've worked on a J-model. But please don't think that you beat the system by un-pluging a component in a feature Kawasaki engineers spent a lot of money and time on designing and manufacturing, because the front end came up under hard acceleration. A simple explanation would be that you were probably sitting far enough back on the seat and nailed the throttle.


In conclusion:

K-TRIC works. It does it's job and doesn't bitch about it. Like the "Kleen mod" there is NO HP gain from disabling the system (probably a marginal loss) and if you believe otherwise, you are probably the result of brothers and sisters procreating.
 
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#11 ·
Take it for what you will. Just like the "jumper mod" that people said was a bunch of horseshit and is still debated today despite dyno charts that prove otherwise this is one of those things that i think people need to try for themselves.

I think after owning this bike for 7 years and the tens of thousands of miles i have put on it i would hope i could tell the difference. This bike has never wheelied unless i try to make it wheelie, even then its hit or miss. Stunt bike it is not.

You have no proof of what you claim, just as i or Jake have no proof of what we claim. Until someone actually puts this on a dyno and shows us definatively whether or not this makes or takes away power accusing people of being the result of inbreeding is pretty taseless.
 
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#12 ·
Allow me to clarify a couple things:

1) The "Jumper mod" works on an entirely different platform. It was more of a manufacturing convenience to make one ECU for all bikes than it was to make country specific ECU's. It is also a feature that makes the bike more attractive to buyers that intend to race. This not to be confused with disabling K-TRIC and thinking there is a gain there.

2) I don't care how long you've owned, or how many miles you have put on your bike, I have worked on, and test ridden (literally) thousands of bikes. Never has there been a problem lifting a G/H/ or J-model that was in good health. This is all psychological.

3) I have no proof of what I claim? Dyno #'s?
Not needed. I could give you 18 reasons why K-TRIC works and why you are a moron, but I won't. I offer you this logical little gem which should put this nasty little rumor to bed...

If K-TRIC didn't work, the engineers at Kawasaki wouldn't have spent the time and money on R+D, nor would they have spent the money to add the extra componentry to the bike increasing the total cost of manufacture. Further more they would not have deployed this technology on, not one, not two, but tree model runs before employing EMPFI.

IF you think for a nanosecond, that you know more about Kawasaki products than Kawasaki engineers do, then I invite you to take a trip to Kobe, Japan, and march right into Kawasaki headquarters and tell them how to build their bikes. Bring a friend to film it too. I would love to see you get laughed out of country.
 
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#13 ·
Kawasaki has to design these bikes to do two (2) things :

1. Pass the emissions and vechicle standards laws of the various country they sell these things in.
2. Make the vehicle work in a wide variety of conditions and environments.

Not every piece of tech on these machines is necessarily beneficial.

If you can provide proof other than "Kawasaki says" then be my guest. Otherwise unless you have something to contribute that dosen't involve acting like a complete asshole who is incapable of civil discussion, just don't post in this thread.
 
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#14 ·
WildCard said:
Kawasaki has to design these bikes to do two (2) things :

1. Pass the emissions and vechicle standards laws of the various country they sell these things in.
2. Make the vehicle work in a wide variety of conditions and environments.

Not every piece of tech on these machines is necessarily beneficial.

If you can provide proof other than "Kawasaki says" then be my guest. Otherwise unless you have something to contribute that dosen't involve acting like a complete asshole who is incapable of civil discussion, just don't post in this thread.
Click to expand...
Jesus Christ. The rebuttal is in your post. If you knew ANYTHING about bikes it would be self evident that K-TRIC is designed to optimize ignition timing based on load and operator input.

Not every piece of tech on the bike is beneficial? Are you freakin' serious? You mean to say they just throw stuff in the mix with no fore thought? ORLY...wow. That is about the most asinine statement I've read in a while.

What proof do you want? You want me to dyno a J-model to prove my LOGIC. Sorry, you are not that important to me. And further more, you can call me an asshole incapable of civil discussion, but the FACT remains, I know a hell of a lot more about bikes than you do and it is my duty to stop ass clowns from spreading mis-information that could potentially damage/render inoperative/depreciate other peoples equipment.

So I ask you, what is more noble? Correcting a newb on a forum with the intent to help or getting into a shitting contest with one of the site's more revered gurus that has turbocharged his bike, gone to school for power-sports technology, and holds certifications from Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Ducati?

Image
 
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#15 ·
So I ask you, what is more noble? Correcting a newb on a forum with the intent to help or getting into a shitting contest with one of the site's more revered gurus that has turbocharged his bike, gone to school for power-sports technology, and holds certifications from Kawasaki, Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and Ducati?
Click to expand...
We're all glad that you are some kind of bike god who has all the answers. It is to bad however that the unwashed masses are to unworthy to recieve anything other than condescending insults. Please kindly go ride your high horse straight to hell.

I was going to continue this discussion and share some information i found but fuck it, i don't really feel like dealing with this shit. If anyone is interested PM me.
 
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#18 ·
Don't quit your day job.

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badassjake said:
hahaha....that's funny....Being kawasaki Mechanic and Certified for 5 years with best marks in each class I can say with strong confidence that Kawasaki does things to be responsible far more then you would assume.

The throttle position sensor does give optimal performance for street riding....It is a race designed street bike. If it was for a crusier or something else then it could be optimal for maximum performance.


And after Canada Kawasaki's Race Mechanic says to unplug it and the bike will be better suited for racing, then that's kinda a no-brainer.

And to be backed up by more performance, my new Dyna 2000 ignition module omits the TPS. And when asked why, they said it was unnecessary for full performance.

....and too I have worked on bikes for 10 years or so, but WTF do I know?...I'm just some guy on the internet.
Click to expand...
Oh that's right! Kawasaki intergrated it into the system to slow the madness of the G/h/ and J-model down.
 
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#16 · (Edited)
hahaha....that's funny....Being kawasaki Mechanic and Certified for 5 years with best marks in each class I can say with strong confidence that Kawasaki does things to be responsible far more then you would assume.

The throttle position sensor DOES give optimal performance for STREET riding....It is a race designed street bike. If it was for a crusier or something else then it could be optimal for maximum performance.


And after Canada Kawasaki's Head Race Mechanic says to unplug it and the bike will be better suited for racing, then that's kinda a no-brainer.

And to be backed up by more performance, my new Dyna 2000 ignition module omits the TPS. And when asked why, they said it was unnecessary for full performance.

....and too I have worked on bikes for 10 years or so, but WTF do I know?...I'm just some guy on the internet.
 
#17 ·
owww.. the man don't beat around the bush do he. I'm no tech by no stretch. But even I cant see why Kawasaki would put this on a bike if it served no real (as in something our bikes would run fine without or better?) purpose but to retard performance, Not when they & the competition are scratching for every pony they can get. I only ask the ? Like I said I'm no tech. But this thread & the possibilities are interesting.
 
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#20 ·
its certainly possible (probable, actually) outright performance isn't the aim of K-TRIC. you shouldn't overlook emissions regulations or a desire for improved part-throttle fuel economy as valid reasons to implement a system like this.


not to mention, even with KTRIC, at WOT its going to be a given curve anyway, which could be done without a TPS by always running the WOT curve.
without seeing the KTRIC map its impossible to know either way.
 
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#21 ·
DrexNX said:
its certainly possible (probable, actually) outright performance isn't the aim of K-TRIC. you shouldn't overlook emissions regulations or a desire for improved part-throttle fuel economy as valid reasons to implement a system like this.


not to mention, even with KTRIC, at WOT its going to be a given curve anyway, which could be done without a TPS by always running the WOT curve.
without seeing the KTRIC map its impossible to know either way.
Click to expand...
Sounds like you might be on to something. Put like that, I can maybe see reasoning in it.
 
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#30 ·
Yeah me of all people. Who the hell are you? More nups out of the woodwork...Leave it unplugged and do your Kleen mod. You will have a 200 HP bike in no time. :rolleyes:

WildCard said:
Heres an idea, if you don't like what i'm saying why don't you either post some PROOF or just GO THE FUCK AWAY.

You have proven nothing other than the fact that you are a high riding, self righteous, egotistical asshole who obviously has nothing better to do with his time than bother the rest of us. You keep repeating the definiton of what K-TRIC stands for, well no shit. We got that part. Tell us oh great master then, what is the difference in the Euro ECU and the US spec ECU since you obviously have all the answers. Maybe if you could do that it would prove the theory wrong then maybe you would have :

And i think if you reread this thread, that is if you have time between saving the world and finding a cure for cancer, that it was YOU who are the one slinging the insults.
Click to expand...
The bottom line is you are wrong. You would rather argue to the end of time than admit that, and that's fine. But you didn't stumble on anything that is going to benefit performance, you just displayed the fact that you are a mental midget with the conduct of a three year old girl.

Go fist your mother you vaginally inflamed cock-puppet.
 
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#27 ·
Heres an idea, if you don't like what i'm saying why don't you either post some PROOF or just GO THE FUCK AWAY.

You have proven nothing other than the fact that you are a high riding, self righteous, egotistical asshole who obviously has nothing better to do with his time than bother the rest of us. You keep repeating the definiton of what K-TRIC stands for, well no shit. We got that part. Tell us oh great master then, what is the difference in the Euro ECU and the US spec ECU since you obviously have all the answers. Maybe if you could do that it would prove the theory wrong then maybe you would have :
swooped in to stop the spread of mis-information and to maybe save you from making a complete ass out of yourself
Click to expand...
And i think if you reread this thread, that is if you have time between saving the world and finding a cure for cancer, that it was YOU who are the one slinging the insults.
 
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#29 ·
Yes, but i suppose now that its pretty obvious that the Kawasaki Canada race techs have no idea how thier bikes worked or how to get more performance out of them.... :rolleyes:
 
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#31 ·
it's all about application.....secondary butterflies on fuel injection to smooth out the jerkyness of throttle response...many racers remove them for road and drag racing, to get rid of restriction in the air passage.

And to squash any notions that it was sabbotage to make competition slower, this advice was given so a loacl amature could better his machine at the National tour stop.

another example of Kawasaki limiting power to make for a smoother machine is the KVF650 4x4 and how they set the ignition for that. Unrestricted with a Dynatec box and they become a hairy beast....top end power is the same but the ignition curve is so agressive that it feels like the bike is a different machine....

With similiar results for the ZX6R's it's more agressive and potentially less an enjoyable street ride for the new rider.........and to add, that Kawasaki doesn't have to make this technology, alot is sold to them and they purchase it from Mikuni/mitsubishi who makes their carbs and ignition CPU.
 
#42 ·
I ride WOT every time I turn key.
:Burnout:
And I found some muffler bearings that added to my over all hp after the
first two barrels fade out going into the secondaries at peak afterburn.
All for $1.49 at the lumber yard.



lol
Really, just ask me.
:karate:
 
#44 ·
raized1199 said:
I ride WOT every time I turn key.
:Burnout:
And I found some muffler bearings that added to my over all hp after the
first two barrels fade out going into the secondaries at peak afterburn.
All for $1.49 at the lumber yard.



lol
Really, just ask me.
:karate:
Click to expand...
Oh noes ... don't use those, this guy who once walked past a honda dealer says that those will burn out the blinker fluids cause oil starvation at 42 o clock stoppies at anything above 4200 horsepower.
 
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#47 ·
I've had my TPS unplugged now for a summer and a half with no problems. I did seem to notice revs would pick up quicker. more power? who knows... But it certainly didnt seem to hurt anything. Not every system a company employs on there machines has to do with outright power. Comprimises do have to be made regarding fuel economy, midrange power, and emissions regulations. Oh and ive also had the KLEEN exhaust reeds re-routed to my crankcase vent for the last two years. I suppose my bike is also going to grenade from that? there are ALWAYS little tricks and mods you can do for free to any machine to gain power or driveability. Ive had many different bikes over the years and always find people on forums who have tried everything in the book to squeeze some extra power out out there bikes. Some work, some dont. No need to shit all over anybody for experimenting. Now if he said "hey if you pour sand in your crankcase it will increase your compression" then sure call him a raving idiot...
 
#48 ·
Agreed. toughguy. I said it makes you look weak minded.look. Never mete you so all WE know about you is what we see on our pPCs. & that is Insults, pigheadedness, (I know everything & your all stupid,attitude of yours.) Its ugly. Contrary to what you obviously believe your NOT the God of Kawasaki. Really I think both of you guys should cool it with the insults. & Iv not proven my self? I don't remember reading anything about proving ones self in the rules. I thought this was/is an open forum. To discuss ideas old & new. Good & bad. No I don't remember reading that I had to be a tech to post or question a post. Hell it seems if it were up to you no one would post but you. Now what kind of forum would that be? Your making a lot of friends pal.
 
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